Brenda Armstrong
Jump to interview with Frank DavisJump to interview with Delbert WigfallTopic Log
00:12 Introduction 00:31 Interviewee introduction; founding of the Durham Striders Youth Association; stated mission and focus; notable alumni 04:11 Expansion on mission of the Durham Striders; focus on children from under resourced communities 05:19 Dual focus on athletics and academics; more notable alumni 08:49 Continued involvement of student athletes through middle and high school; combating parental pressure; practice schedule 11:42 Davis’s current involvement with the Striders; organization’s relationship with Duke 14:51 Russell Blunt; Blunt’s influence on Armstrong and the coaching philosophy of the Striders; Russell E. Blunt Invitational 20:10 Armstrong’s childhood in Rocky Mount, North Carolina 21:10 Armstrong’s involvement with the Striders; role as coach of 12-and-under age group; team physicals; role as team physician 27:03 Armstrong’s interactions with parents; role as chaperone on overnight trips; Striders’ newsletter; team transportation; promoting healthy eating habits 34:33 Armstrong’s role in fundraising for the Striders; involvement in St. Titus Episcopal Church 37:43 Armstrong’s role in the Allen Building Takeover; her work as Associate Dean of Admissions; more notable alumni of the Durham Striders 41:11 Armstrong’s mentor-mentee relationships within the Striders 46:22 Armstrong’s reputation among Striders’ athletes; more notable alumni 51:45 Armstrong’s relationship with Striders’ parents; continued involvement through her illness; team trip to Miami 56:59 Coaching philosophy; academic and athletic scholarships for alumni of the Striders; connections to coaches across the United States 1:01:41 Armstrong’s legacy within the Durham Striders 1:05:04 Armstrong’s community involvement in Durham; St. Titus Episcopal Church; commitment to the Durham Striders; guest speeches at other universities 1:08:07 Fundraiser for the Durham Striders hosted by Duke medical students 1:11:33 Memories of Dr. Armstrong; team trips
Full Transcript
Ava Meigs 0:12 My name is Ava Meigs. The date is February 18, 2024. We're recording in Perkins Library, and I'm interviewing Mr. Frank Davis for the Agents of Change Oral History Project. So, to start, could you just tell me a little bit about yourself? Frank Davis 0:31 I was born in North Carolina , [in] a place called Hamlet. I was born in Hamlet and lived in Philadelphia -- on and off between Hamlet and Philadelphia. My dad was military, so I was all over the place, but I loved it. I was in the Air Force in electronics and aircraft instrumentation. After the Air Force, I went to college. I went to Temple University. I have an associate degree in technology from Temple. I transferred to A&T (North Carolina Agricultural Technical State University) and got a Bachelor of Science degree in Electrical Engineering. Then, I worked at IBM and went to graduate school at North Carolina State and got my Master in Electrical Engineering. That's my job side. Other than that, I've been involved with a youth program. It's a nonprofit youth development program. It's track and field, basically. We started in 1975, and I was one of the founders. We started with probably about 15-20 kids. Eventually, we ended up with 300 kids over the years and [a] staff of about 20 coaches. I've been Head Coach of the program, Head Coach and President, since 1980. We pride ourselves on developing youth. We [have] ages six through eighteen. We stress academics, conduct, and discipline. We're old school. We don't tolerate a lot of crazy stuff. Our main focus is to get kids into something where they can have a productive life. We've had over 300 kids get scholarships through our program. When I say scholarships, that's a combination of athletics [and] academics. Probably 80 to 90% of the kids in the program come from these targeted areas in Durham, and that's who we pride ourselves on working with, [getting] them out of their situation. It ends up that most graduate. We have most of them, about 90%, on the A/B honor roll in school. And that's what we do. We have some real successful graduates. On the track side, we've had Olympic champions. We had one guy, [as a] matter of fact, that went to Duke: [a] guy named Randy Jones. He was on the football team at Duke and ran track, and he ended up on the U.S. Olympic bobsled team. They got a silver at one of the Olympics. We've had five guys end up playing pro football. We had a girl who played in the WNBA. She played at Virginia. She was a Duke rival. We've had a bunch come through the program that ended up being doctors, lawyers, and engineers. They came through this program out of neighborhoods where they weren't supposed to be successful. So, that's what we do. And none of us get paid. None of the volunteers get paid. They just volunteer. So, that's basically about the program and about me. And I'm a Kappa. My fraternity is Kappa. I have to say that. AM 4:11 Can you tell me just a little bit more about the mission of the Striders -- maybe some different programs that you all administer? FD 4:18 We're about developing kids and making them successful in life. That's our main mission, but we use track as a hook. We get them in the program and the track, where they're having fun. Then, unknowingly, we work on everything else -- the academic side of it. You wouldn't believe the environments they came from and where they end up. Some you wouldn't believe at all. And for them to go on and be successful? You know, they [become] medical doctors [and] PhDs. They've done that, and they're doing some great things out there. AM 5:19 So, you all work on both the physical side with the track programs and also supporting their academic growth? FD 5:26 The physical side -- we work on that because it's track. [We work on] physical condition and diet, [making sure] they eat the right things. Then, we work on the mind. We win a lot. I doubt there's another program in the country that's as good as we are, or have done what we've done, or do what we do. We've won a lot of national championships. We've had a lot of national champions, a lot of national record holders. [We’ve had] kids that make world teams. We had a guy that made the world team and won the World Juniors in the hurdles. He went to Carolina (University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill). He just graduated from Carolina about a year or so ago, but he's on the pro circuit now. And I've got a niece that got a PhD in Kinesiology. She teaches over at UNC-G (University of North Carolina at Greensboro). We have a guy that's a dentist down in Atlanta. He came out of the country, [a] real bad environment north of Durham. [His name is] Bruce. He's a dentist now down in Atlanta, [a] real successful dentist, but he came out of an environment where they didn't have any money. [We had] another girl that lived in the hood off of Angier Avenue in Durham, and her situation was real bad. She ended up going to Carolina on a track scholarship. She was Gatorade Athlete of the Year for North Carolina. She won four events at the high school state championship, had a 4.2 grade point average, and worked in the community. [She had] all this stuff, and coming from the environment that she was in. She just got a master's from UNC-G. That's one of our worst cases. We have another one, Dr. Monica Hockaday, that actually got kicked off the track team at Hillside (Hillside High School), the girls team. The boys coach had to coach her. She couldn't tolerate the female coach. When she was 13, I actually kicked her off our team, but she came back the next day. I told her that she had to conform to the way we do things. I said, "If you want to be part of the program, you've got to change." She left and came back. She ended up graduating from high school. She was All-American at Pitt (University of Pittsburgh), [an] honors student. Now, she has a PhD. She lives out in California. She eventually went to the Air Force and [did] some other stuff, but I called her a thug. She was. She was really a thug. There were two other girls that came with her, and I put all three off [the team] at the same time. She came back. The other two didn't. They ended up on the streets in Durham. So, we like to think we have a lot to do with the success that these kids have had. AM 8:49 Absolutely. So, you mentioned that the program starts with ages as young as 6. Do your athletes normally start young and continue with you through middle school and high school? FD 9:01 Well, we said 6, but we actually had a 3-year-old. You can't tell them what to do. We've got a guy [named] William Turner. He just got his law degree, but he went to Morehouse (Morehouse College) down in Atlanta, and he's married and had a little girl. He kept begging us, so we let her come out at 3 years. You can't tell her what to do. She'll run around the track, stop, and start picking flowers, anything. But that's what we do. We let them have fun. Our basic starting age is 6, but if they're 5 about to turn 6, we can deal with that because we figure that's the age where you can actually tell them something and they'll listen. We don't put pressure on them. The pressure comes from their parents [who] think, at that age, that they are ready for the Olympics. That's the way these parents are. We try to tell the parents, "Leave them alone. Just let them grow. If they don't want to run, don't worry about it. Eventually, they will, but you don't want to turn them against it, where they dislike track." We keep them in the program until they get to be about age 13. That's when they get kind of serious. [Around ages] 15, 16, 17, they're looking for scholarships. But early on, you just have to keep the parents away from them because the kids will eventually develop. You might have somebody nine years old, breaking national records. That doesn't mean anything. They can't get a scholarship. Some parents push kids like that. They go out and get personal trainers, having kids doing all kinds of crazy stuff. We tell them not to. We practice three days a week, at most [for] an hour and a half. That's it. We don't practice every day. We don't practice [for] 2 or 3 hours like some people do. As you know, your body needs rest. So, they need rest. It's more than just running and trying to get in really good shape. All these kids are different. So, you have to deal with them in different ways. Some kids you can yell at and some you can't. The first time you yell at some kids, they'll start crying. Other ones, you have to yell at them. They know they're bad, so they're used to it. But it's something else, working with a variety of kids and a variety of backgrounds. But, like I said, the main thing is to keep these parents in check. AM 11:42 Are you still actively involved with the Striders, coaching or in any other capacity? FD 11:49 Yeah, I'm still Head Coach, President and Head Coach. I don't coach as much because I have younger coaches, and they can tolerate some of these kids better than I can. I just can't do it anymore. But I have young coaches that we're trying to train [and] let them be involved and learn all this stuff. We have 20 to 25 coaches out there, and most of them ran with us. They are now back as parents with kids in the program. They know our philosophy and know what we do, so it's kind of easy. To me, they're tougher on these kids than we were. I guess, in their minds, they think we were tough, so they're being tough. But it's all about discipline and conduct, and they do a good job. I oversee stuff, and if I see something that I need them to change or they can improve, I'll talk to them on the side or something. I let them get the credit for what they do. I kind of stay in the background, but I'm still involved. We do other things, too. We do electronic timing at the track meets as a way of raising funds in the high school state championship. I did a meet two weeks ago at Carolina. I did one of their track meets. We've done national championships to raise money for the program. And, we've had a good relationship with Duke over the years. We have a track meet called the Russell E. Blunt East Coast Invitational that we've been doing since back in the 90s. We used to have the meeting at Duke back when Duke had the track inside the football stadium. But once they won about 2 or 3 football games, they decided to take the track out. But we used to have a big meet at Duke every year, where we had athletes come in from across the U.S. and, [as a] matter of fact, other places like Jamaica, the Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada, Virgin Islands, [and] Mexico. They used to all be at Duke. [It would] be about 3,000 athletes, and Duke did a good job because we didn't have to pay to use the facility. Duke basically paid for everything. They paid for the water, the ice, the tents, security, everything. The only thing we had to pay for was for somebody to operate the video board, and I think that basically came through Doc. I'm going to keep saying "Doc," Dr. Armstrong. It was the top track meet in the country for years until Duke moved the track out of the stadium. AM 14:51 I've run across that name before: Russell Blunt. Was that Dr. Armstrong's godfather? FD 14:58 Yes, it was, and he was an amazing guy, too. He coached [high school] until he was in his 90s. He won the High School State Championship when he was 95 years old. But Coach Blunt was an old timer. He coached at a lot of places, but his biggest claim to fame was Hillside High School back in the day. He coached a lot of athletes who came through Hillside. He had some world-renowned athletes come out of there. And a lot of kids that went to Hillside ran in our program. They came from these neighborhoods like McDougald Terrace, Few Gardens, Cornwallis, Bragtown, Bluefield, and Turnkey, all these neighborhoods all over the place. But Coach Blunt was like a mentor, and we pattern ourselves after him. He was no-nonsense. The discipline, [our] philosophy about hard work and kids being successful, that came from Coach Blunt, but that affected Doc a lot because she tried to coach like Coach Blunt. Coach Blunt said, "Doc is going to kill them kids. She thinks she's doing what I do." Did any of you run track? AM 16:28 I didn't. FD 16:29 One of the toughest races to run is the 400 one lap because you're running at full speed, and that's what Coach Blunt trained around. That's what Doc would train those little kids around. She was being like Coach Blunt. He won 13 state championships, and he did a lot of stuff before integration that he's not getting recognized for. Some of these athletes should have been recognized. They aren't. They aren't in the Hall of Fame. He's in the Hall of Fame, but some of the athletes that ran for him aren't because they didn't document stuff properly. Back then, the Black schools, they just didn't do that kind of stuff. So, you couldn't prove that you guys did the stuff. But they did. Coach Blunt was a tough guy. His major was psychology, and he's from Massachusetts. If you look at his high school class, he was the only Black dude in his class. And that [was] the environment. That's where he came from. So, he was a very smart, intelligent guy. And, like I said, he was a psychology major. So, he used a lot of psych -- I didn't realize that until later on. Then, I understood where he was coming from. But [he was] no-nonsense. You earn what you get. We’d go to track meets, [and] they’d have standards for some of these meets. If the qualifying standard is 10:12 and you run 10:13, you don't go. You didn't earn it. That's the way he was. And he would always say, "You got there" and that's our philosophy, too. We don't give these kids anything. They are very successful, but they earn it. We don't give them stuff and that's life. You have to earn what you get. And a lot of that came from Coach Blunt. She loved herself some Coach Blunt. She loved Coach Blunt, and he was the man. So, the track meet that we have -- first, it was the Durham Striders Invitational. And then, during intermission at one of the track meets at Duke, we changed the name to the Russell E. Blunt Invitational in his honor. And he's known all over the place. And his memory: he didn't forget anything. He would remember you two years from now, exactly what you have on and everything. That's the kind of memory he had. He didn't forget stuff. He didn't forget stats. He could remember the time the kids ran 30 years ago. He could have been much bigger than he was, but he wanted to work with the grassroots people. Dr. LeRoy Walker was the head of the Olympic Committee, [an] Olympic coach, and he was big time. He (Coach Blunt) could have been on the same level as Dr. Walker, but he wanted to work in the neighborhoods with kids. And that's what he did. We pattern ourselves after Coach Blunt, and that was Dr. Armstrong's main guy. And he and Dr. Armstrong's daddy were good friends. Did you know about her dad? AM 20:08 Not as much. FD 20:10 Well, she's from Rocky Mount, and her dad was head of the Black Athletic Association before integration. Her dad [was] over that stuff in North Carolina. He was an official and he was a doctor. He was a lot of stuff, and he's in the Hall of Fame. His picture is hanging on the wall over in Chapel Hill. But she had real good roots. And her mother was an English teacher. I could talk about Doc all day. AM 20:57 It sounds like Dr. Armstrong's childhood and her parents' careers really influenced her involvement with the Striders. Would you say that's true? FD 21:07 Do you want me to start talking about Doc? AM 21:09 Go for it. FD 21:10 Well, the way she got involved was basically through Coach Blunt. It was 1981. Coach Blunt had her come out to give the kids physicals, and, after that, she's been out there ever since. She really didn't know a lot about track. But she eventually did learn through us and through Coach Blunt. [As a] matter of fact, she was Coach of the Year in the country. I have a thing I did on Doc. [Interviewee hands interviewers paper summary of Dr. Armstrong's work with the Durham Striders]. But she came out and got involved. We actually put her over the little kids because she was so short. Y'all didn't know Doc, did you? She was about that tall. [Interviewee references height with hand motion]. She was feisty. She was tough. She had the kids 12 and under, the young kids. And the good thing about that [was that] when they came into our program, they had to come in through her. She had them first before they got to us. She was tough -- the discipline, the academics. She would make them bring report cards to practice. She would. Not to kick them off the team, but to let them know how important [the grades] were. And believe it or not, these kids' grades got better because they didn't want to bring a report card to practice where they got all these bad grades and everybody else got good grades. I think that's one thing that she did that helped these kids. And once they got to be older, the academic side of it was already instilled. They're the ones who want to be successful. It was already in them coming through Doc, and she was tough. You could tell when she wasn't at practice. Those little kids gave us a fit. When Doc was there, they were like soldiers because she was tough. And some of these kids, some now that are adults, they're still scared of Doc. That's how tough she was. But there was a reason for it. So, once they reached a certain age, Doc had already trained them: the values, the conduct, the discipline, [and] the academics. Every year we had registration, she would have a team of medical students and doctors to give these kids physicals. [There] might be about 10 in the room, giving these kids physicals. She would ask for volunteers, but almost demand volunteers. They would be out there giving these kids free physicals, and that was done by her. And she kept a record on each kid, the whole thing. She kept and monitored that stuff, and tracked it all the way through the season, [making sure] that everything got better. Even though they didn’t have real, real high blood pressure. But all that stuff got better as the season went along, and she kept a record of this. And then, if the kids had any kind of illness, or asthma, anything, she knew about it. [If] they needed medication, she would have medication. I don't see how she did it. And believe it or not, most of the people in the program didn't know she was a doctor. They called her Coach Doc. They didn't know she was a real doctor, even some of the parents, because she kept it separate. She kept Duke separate from this program. Just like the people at Duke didn't know she coached track. I went to [her] funeral, and a lot of people didn't know she coached track. She was one of the best-known track coaches in the country. Everybody knew [her], all across the country. And we've been on trips -- Doc saved at least three lives because we've been in situations where someone says, "If there's a doctor in the house," and she would be available. One of our parents had a heart attack in St. Louis. She saved her life. Then, we went down to South Carolina and a kid started -- it was hot, almost 100 degrees at the University of South Carolina. These trainers didn’t know what they were doing. Doc just ran them away. She took control of the situation. So, she's done a lot of stuff like that. People didn't know she was a doctor. She's done a whole lot of stuff. But she wouldn't let us know when she won something. I said, "Doc, why didn't you come to practice yesterday? "Oh, I had to fly to California to pick up this award." That's the way she was. She just kept it totally separate. She was a coach and not a doctor at practice, until we needed her. If a kid came complaining to me, I'd say, "Go see Doc.” We've had kids say they're having heart attacks and all kinds of stuff. I'd say, "Go see Doc." And then they'd turn around and go on back and start practicing. They didn't want to see Doc. AM 27:03 So, it sounds like her background as a doctor was really more a support to her work with you -- like an addition, maybe, to her role as a coach? FD 27:10 We had her as our team physician, and that's something other teams didn't have. We had her, so we knew that if they had any kind of ailments, we'd say, "Go see Doc." We didn't want to hurt them because we don't run kids hurt. But we’d send them to Doc, and they can't lie to Doc. She was Vice President of the Board [and an] executive committee member. She was Assistant Head Coach for the 12 and under [age group]. She actually coached distance and middle distance, too, because that's what Coach Blunt specialized in. She thought she was the distance coach. She started out cross -- we have a cross country program, and she basically started that for the little kids. And she interfaced with parents. She could be diplomatic. See, you don't want me to talk to parents because I'd just tell them to take their child and leave. But Doc could talk to them in a way -- she had a way to interface with these parents, and they’d listen to Doc. And then, chaperones -- when we travel, we may have 30, sometimes 40, rooms with kids. Before I really became Head Coach, we'd go on trips and we'd be up all night, watching these kids run up and down the halls, all this crazy stuff. So, we got to the point where we just changed overnight. [We] wouldn't tolerate it. We’d just put them off the team. So, that changed the way these kids acted. They didn't act crazy anymore because we would put them off the team. Then, we would have bed check, lights out, and take the cell phones because these kids would be on these phones all night. Doc was head of all this stuff. The kids 12 and under [had to be] watched 24 hours. They were never without an adult around them. The older kids – we'd give them a little freedom. They had a chaperone next door, not in the same room. But the little kids [had] chaperones in the room. And Doc coordinated these chaperones. She didn't let any and everybody deal with these kids. She would chaperone. She wanted to. She didn't have to, but she wanted to. She did the newsletter. At the Blunt meet, the one we had at Duke, she was the meeting manager. I was the meet director. I just ran the meet, but she managed all the stuff surrounding me. She did a lot of stuff. For our older kids, she did SAT stuff. She was really good at preparing these kids to take the SATs. She was excellent at doing that stuff. We'd say, "Go see Doc" if they were taking the SAT, and they'd do great. Nobody can believe she did all this and still worked at Duke. On a typical week, we practiced for an hour and a half. So, you're talking about four hours and a half just [in] practice. During the season, after school is out, we travel. We may be on a 3-day meet and nationals, [which is] like 4 or 5 days. That's 24 hours a day. So, you can add all this time in. So, she spent a lot of time with the program. Way back when, we bought a bus, [and] paid $200 for it. We bought a $200 bus and we traveled. We'd go all over the country in that bus. [It] would be breaking down. We didn't care. We knew it was going to break down. We knew the bus would break down. Back before vans became popular, Doc bought a station wagon, so she could transport some of the kids. She eventually bought a van, and all the real little kids would ride with Doc. It was an honor for them to ride in Doc's van. She would be right behind that bus with her van. The first bus we got kind of blew up on us. We had to have the thing towed back from Georgia. So, then we got another frame. The frame was decent, but the engine was blown up. So, we actually built a bus in my backyard. We took parts off one bus and put [them] on another bus. We had GMC parts on the international bus. We had parts all over the place, [and we] took off to Ohio with that. That was our first test drive: a busload of kids going to Ohio. We broke down in Hillsborough before we got outside of -- that was the first time we broke down. We broke down eight times getting to Ohio, and the kids [were] just as happy on the bus, just having a good time. Everybody said, "Durham Striders got their own bus." They didn't know we broke down all the way up there. But Doc would be right behind us in that van with those kids. The little kids -- she didn't care much about them once they got beyond 12 years old. She didn't care about them then. Her thing was those little kids. The older kids -- she didn't care about those older kids once they got old. She loved those little kids, and they had special uniforms that she would buy them. One time, we were going to a meet in Maryland, and Doc bought -- I don't know why she did this -- she bought these kids white warm up suits. Those kids had Kool Aid cans and everything all over them. They were nice. They had the hood and everything. That's the type of person she was. She was great. And she kept the coaches straight, as far as what [they ate]. She would give the kids' parents a thing, [detailing] what they should eat and shouldn't eat. You know, fast foods and all that crazy stuff she didn't believe in. She didn't believe in a whole lot of Gatorade. She believed in water. She would have the kids on Mondays “tell on” the parents. She called it "Tell on Parents Day.” And they would [say] that their parents gave them hot dogs and all the other stuff. They would tell on their parents. And then, she would get on the parents about feeding those kids all that junk food. But she did a lot of stuff, because of her background in medicine, that other people couldn't do. And she could monitor a lot of stuff. She was just an amazing, amazing person. AM 34:33 What were some of her other duties or responsibilities, maybe as Vice President [or] sitting on the Board? What else did she do with the Striders? FD 34:44 Sitting on the board -- we made decisions. We had meetings, probably at least once a month, and we always met at Doc's house. She would have food for us [and] drinks and stuff. [We’d] go to her house, and we would argue because she likes to argue. But once we got to a point, we would agree on everything. And that's the way it was. She would give her opinion. I'd give my opinion. But she was very, very feisty. She did a lot of stuff in the community, helping us raise money. And we raised a lot of money through -- [as a ] matter of fact, we're still receiving contributions annually. Somebody gives us $10,000 a year based on Doc, somebody she knew. Every year the check would come in just around December. And fundraise -- she could write. She could write. I'd be doing a grant, [and] I'd get Doc to write up something and she'd write 10,000 words. In the body of the thing, it'd say "Maximum 1,000 words." So, I'd have to go in and try to edit all this stuff she'd put in there [and] cut it down to 1,000 words. She could write and she could talk. We'd go to the City Council. She would get up and voice her opinion about preventive type stuff. They'd give you money to rehab kids. That's what they'd do. They'd give you money for somebody that's been in jail. And we don't bring those kinds of people in our program. We [told] them, “We try to prevent that.” And that's what she used to always push. She would always go to meetings and talk about how much it costs to keep somebody in jail versus to try to prevent them from going to jail. She would always be arguing with the mayor and everybody else. She would do it. They respected her. She knew these people. It's hard. We can't replace her. [There’s] no way we could replace her. We have a lot of people trying to do some of the stuff she did by herself. I would always introduce her [with] some of the stuff [she did] with the program and what she did at Duke. And then, I would always say she played the piano and organ at her church. She was involved in her church just as much as she was with the rest. So, I don't know where she found the time or the effort to do all this stuff. And then over the years, she adopted three boys at different times. So, she raised three boys that she had adopted. She was always busy. You know about her background as far as the Sit-In (Allen Building Sit-In, 1969) and all that stuff at Duke, right? AM 37:43 I do. I'm familiar with the Allen Building Takeover. FD 37:47 She knows a lot of people. [She has] a lot of contacts [and] a lot of influence. You know what she did with the medical school here, with this minority thing? And she was always telling me about Black students she had here. She would always say, "They all graduated." She wasn't bringing them in just because they were Black. She was bringing them in because they could handle it. She would go out and recruit medical students. She would always talk about it. She had influence with other schools. We had kids that did go to medical school, not necessarily at Duke, but she had influence with people at other places. We have a girl now that will be a -- she's almost finished at Carolina, Nzia Hall. And Doc kind of led the way for her. She was valedictorian. I've never seen her father, just her mom. She went to A&T. She graduated from A&T in two years. She was smart. She was outstanding. Actually, I coached her because I used to coach at Southern Durham (Southern High School), too. She was running at Southern Durham, and she was Scholar Athlete of the Year in North Carolina. That's how smart that girl was. She ended up leaving A&T, [and] went to Georgetown and got a master's. Now, she's finishing up, in a short period of time, at Carolina Medical School. [At A&T], she was head of some kind of Alzheimer's research, and Doc had a lot of influence on her, preparing her for [that] stuff. She [Dr. Armstrong] was always trying to get people to come to Duke, though. She loved Duke, but a lot of them went to other places. One girl, Lori Peele, went up to Brown University, and that's amazing. That girl never won anything [in] track. She came from Cornwallis Projects. I think the entire time she was there [Brown University], she ended up paying a total of $200. They got her a job in a library. She's a doctor now over in Raleigh, but she came from Cornwallis. Her dad was one of those guys on the street, digging through trash cans. He died. But those are the kinds of people we had, and those are the kinds of people Doc had some influence over. AM 41:11 Did she form any other really close mentor-mentee relationships with any of the athletes? FD 41:19 Yeah, because they would come to her for advice, especially when [they] started talking about college, like I was saying with the SAT thing. Then, she would get involved on other ends, making sure they did the right thing [and] filled out the applications right. [She would help with] the whole deal, no matter what school. AM 41:42 I'm not honestly sure what that sound was. [Interviewer references intercom sound]. FD 41:43 They all had a relationship with Doc. They did, one way or another. Even though she didn't have a lot to do with the older kids -- she'd rather deal with the little kids -- she was tough on these older kids. [It] seemed like she was really tough on them. I guess, because she knew they were ready to go out in the world. She was tough, and they all respected her for that. One of my coaches liked to eat all of that junk: sugar and ice cream. He was always trying to sneak stuff by Doc. Well, she would catch him. You'd just have to know her. Doc would just pay for stuff. [If] kids didn't have money to eat, she would just go in her pocket and pay for it. And that's one of the main reasons our program never got to the point where we were charging kids a lot of money. So, you can run for us without anything, [and] that includes travel. You don't have to pay for hotels [or] transportation. [With] all these other programs, it's on the parents. They have to pay. But way back when, Doc said, "We're doing this stuff. We're trying to volunteer. We're trying to help these kids, and we don't want to charge." I think the most we charged was like $50 for a long time. Now, we don't get the donations like we used to. We charge $200, but if they don't have it, they don't pay it. That includes traveling all over the country [and] staying in hotels. That $200 doesn't cover anything. We just said $200 to give us some seed money, but that's what we do. [For] bed check, we have captains. We have age groups. We have 6 and under, 7/8, -- every two years, there's a break. Each age group had a captain. With older kids, we choose the captain. But the little kids, you can tell who the captain is. That's the little kid that's going to take over. They establish themselves as a captain just by the way they act. [When] we go on trips, the older kids, the older captains, make bed check and lights out. They make the check, and they're tough. That all comes from Doc. We don't worry. We don't stay up all night. We go to sleep, too, because these kids go to sleep, and they have to be ready to run. You don't see our kids running all over the place. [When] they go to a hotel, you can't tell they're in a hotel because we don't allow them to be running up and down the halls. [When] we go to restaurants, they just sit at tables, not yelling and shouting, just talking with each other. If they have an issue with the food, we tell them, "Talk to one of the coaches. Don't approach a waiter or anybody." One time we went to this restaurant and the owner came out and said, "I'm going to buy all these kids some ice cream." He gave them all ice cream because of the way they acted. He couldn't believe these kids acted that way. That's the way they are, real mature and sit there quietly. They talk, but they talk among themselves. Now, we have a bus, a very reliable bus, that we bought. We travel on that. We don't let the little kids ride on that. They ride in vans. We don't want them disturbing the bus driver, but we always have 2 or 3 vans. We have the little kids in the vans because you have better control. You never know when they have to stop to go to the bathroom or anything like that. You don't want to be stopping the whole bus full for only 2 kids. AM 46:22 What was Dr. Armstrong's reputation among the athletes, maybe outside of being tough? Do you think they appreciated how tough she was on them? FD 46:31 Oh yeah, especially when they become adults [and] they look back on it. I guess when they're in the program, they think you're being really hard on them, but later on, they will understand. We had this girl, Helen Goldsby. [Doc] had a knack for catching these kids doing stuff wrong. We were in Maryland, and we had -- in the hotel, we set it up, so the boys were on one floor and the girls were on different floors. Coming down the elevator, these girls decided to get off the elevator on the boys' floor and go into one of the guys' rooms. And Doc caught them. Doc went into the room. They were hiding in the bathroom behind the shower curtain. These girls, [we] put them off the team. [With Helen Goldsby], we put her off, but she came back the next year. She ended up being in the Miss America contest. Eventually, she went up to Howard University to run track. Next thing we know, Helen had quit the track team. We were at a football game. My brother said, "That looks like Helen." She'd come with those dancing golden girls, stepping down the street. So, she graduated from Howard and then went to grad school up in New York, I guess, to be an actress. She placed in the top 10 in the Miss America contest. Her thing was opera, but she ended up being a pretty big-time actress, [in] movies and stuff. She wrote us a letter thanking us, [saying] she understood what went down. A few weeks ago she was on this Facebook page they have [called] "I ran with the Striders," showing, "I still have my uniform.” [She was] showing her uniform. We have another actress, April Parker, that's in these movies, these mystery, detector-type shows. She's in the Walk of Fame, out in California. So, they still stay in touch. We had another guy that's on TV, on the detective movies. And then another one that gets killed all the time. But they all stay in touch, and they stay in touch with Doc. The guy Randy I told you about that was on the bobsled team? His home was Winston Salem, but in order to run with us, you have to be able to practice with us. [So, he] stayed at Doc's house. Doc kept like five guys at her house during the summer. One of them, Kevin, ended up playing NFL football. Then, Randy, the one I was talking about. Then Lee McRae -- that's a case, that's a special case. Lee McRae ended up with a world record. He went to university [and set a] world record. Doc kept them at her house, so they'd have someplace to stay. But Lee McRae was a country boy out of Pembroke, North Carolina, [from] a pig farm. Doc took that boy to school. He went to the University of Pittsburgh. All the clothes he had were in one of these footlockers. That's all he had. She took him up there. The coach at Pittsburgh, Coach Louis, loved himself some Doc. Lee ended up being a world-record-holder and a whole bunch of other stuff. [He ran] two events at the NCAAs: the 100 and the 200. But she had a lot of big-time relationships with these older kids, too. They would come to town. And [as a] matter of fact, some of the basketball players at Duke would hang out over at Doc's house. She knew those basketball players back in the day. She had a good relationship with the older kids, too, on that end. The discipline was there [and] the conduct was there. They love themselves some Doc. And they could flat out run. Those guys really had a lot of talent and did some great things. We had another one that came to Duke, a guy named Musa Williams. When Musa was little -- I guess about 9 or 10 -- he was a little chubby guy, a little fat guy. And, eventually, he ended up being a distance runner. He was so bad. Every time he did something, Doc said, "Musa take a lap." He ran so many laps. He was training to be a distance runner. He did, and he ended up coming to Duke, but he ended up breaking a national record in the 3,000 and 5,000. And it all started with Doc, messing with Musa. AM 51:45 On a similar note, how do you think the parents appreciated her being tough on them, making sure they didn't have their kids eating fast food or drinking soda? Do you think they appreciated that in a similar way? FD 51:59 Yeah, they appreciated it. They understood. Doc had them start a group while the kids were practicing. They would be walking or doing something themselves. We had one of our former athletes that was a personal trainer. She would have them out there training. During the Blunt meet, we ran -- we still do it. We run a mother's relay, a father's relay, [and] a coaches' relay in the meet exhibition. So, other teams bring their parents in and they all run. But Doc started all that stuff, where they'd be running against each other. [As a] matter of fact, she ran one time. She would run in the relay. She'd get on the best team, though. We might have three teams, A, B, C. She was going to anchor the best team. But the parents, they appreciated it. They love themselves some Doc. She was tough, but she was straight up. She didn't pull any punches. To the end, Doc was working in this program because -- I didn't even know she was sick until she made the mistake of telling me one day, "Frank, you know, when it's hot out in the sun, I have to stay out of the sun, especially [on] days I take chemo." That's the first time I realized she was -- well, she was still coming to practice. And then eventually, when she said, "I took my last treatment," I thought she was alright, but she wasn't. But that's the way she was. I could tell she was losing weight and some other stuff. You could tell she wasn't looking right, but I thought it was the results of the chemo having that effect on her. She was tough. She was involved until the end. She did a lot of stuff for this program. I can just go back and tell you a whole lot of stuff that she did, especially when we traveled, breaking down and how she handled the kids. And she took pictures of us. We had a bus. We went to Miami on this bus, and didn't have a starter to start the bus. You don't know about popping a clutch, right? AM 54:41 I don't. FD 54:42 You could push the clutch in, and as long as you get the vehicle rolling and let the clutch up, it'll jump and start up. That's how we started that bus. We would go park someplace, let the kids eat at a restaurant, a McDonald’s or something. We'd park on a little incline. The older kids would go out and push the bus. It would start up [and] they'd jump on. Those little kids [would say], "I can't wait until I get old enough to push the bus." They would, and they didn't care. We'd just go on and just ride, just as happy. One time we went to Miami, and Doc was over these little kids. By her being a doctor, she knew more than we did, she thought. And I told Doc, "Don't let them go swimming." After the meet is over, then we let them swim. And I told Doc, "They can't swim [inaudible]." She didn't believe us. Doc had those little kids out there in the ocean, just playing and jumping around in the water. And the next day, they went to that track meet. They were running like they were molasses. Doc started crying. From that point on, she believed us. The kids did okay because, eventually, they ran good enough to qualify for the next day. She listened to us then. I kept telling Doc, "We know a little bit now." And she coached these kids. A bunch of them ended up breaking national records. She could coach now. It wasn't like she was just out there. She learned how to coach. And those little kids were tough. I mean, they could run because of her coaching. And, like I said, 3 days a week, [for] an hour and a half. That's all we did, and then rest. But you get so many crazy parents. They'll take them out there on their own, on the off days. They don't realize they're killing these kids [by] doing that stuff. Just let them rest. AM 56:59 So, it sounds like Dr. Armstrong really gave all of herself to this program. FD 57:04 All of it. She loved this program more than anything. She was always helping me to raise money, dealing with the grants and all this stuff. I let her do the health part of the program [and] of the grants because that's a big part of what we did. When we wrote a grant, we never talked about winning. When I go and try to raise some money, I talk about getting these kids out of neighborhoods, getting them in college. I never tell them we just won a national championship. We went for 20-some years without ever losing a track meet, straight. I'm talking [about] national stuff. We didn't lose. That's how good we were. We had some real good athletes. They end up being real good athletes because of the way we train them. And they just stuck with the program. You asked before about them going all the way through the program. Yeah, they do, and we learn how to do that. We learn how to do it because, years ago, I didn't understand why some kids run real good when they're little. And, as they get older, they aren't as good. A lot of people said, "Well, they burn out. Y'all burn them kids out." Kids don't burn out. They don't burn out because they aren't going to run and just kill themselves. Some kids are just more mature, and they're just stronger or bigger. So, when they're little [they’re] just beating people by that, not by how hard they work. So, some of these kids get used to beating kids without working. And the ones who work hard continue to work, and they get better. They end up beating these kids, eventually. As you know, we've had issues with girls, mainly with girls, when they get to be about 13 years old. Everybody said they're burned out. They aren't burned out. As you know, their body is going through changes and all that kind of stuff. So, to get them over that hump -- as long as you keep them in the program, eventually, they'll be fine. They aren't burned out. They're still trying, but it's just the stuff they're going through, emotionally, too. But the thing is to get them over that hump. And that's what we've learned to do. We've learned how to bring them all the way through the program and graduate. Before COVID, -- COVID kind of slowed us down a little bit -- we were averaging six kids a year in scholarship. I'm talking about full scholarships, where they don't have to pay. Well over 300 have come through this program that's done that. Those are our main things: get them in college, where they don't have to pay. That's what we do. We know coaches across the country. We have some kids out of our program [who are] coaching. My nephew coaches at Oklahoma (University of Oklahoma). We have another guy that was with us. He just got a job. He's coaching at Georgia Southern (Georgia Southern University). My niece coached at Elon (Elon University). We got a girl out at Sacramento State, Kim Brown. She actually has a gold in the Olympics. So, we know coaches, not just the ones that came through us, but we know coaches all across the country. I know these Olympic coaches. I know Bruce Smith. He's the best coach I know. He's the coach at Stanford. He's head of high performance in the U.S. He was head of sports operations at Disney. And they knew Doc [and] they knew Coach Blunt. Just before she died, USA Track and Field [was] getting ready to do a special thing on Doc, [to] recognize her on a national level because of what she was doing with kids. That would have been a real big deal. The lady over all that stuff came to a meet that we had in Durham. We were telling her about Doc, about the medical side of this stuff. She said, "That's great." She didn't realize -- they were getting ready to do a big-time thing on Doc. AM 1:01:41 What would you say is her legacy within the Striders, in the greater Durham area? FD 1:01:48 A lot of people know her, basically, by what she's done at Duke. But, with the program -- the people in track and field know about her, but in Durham, a lot of people don't because Doc kept it -- she didn't go out just boasting about what she did. The people -- the city council and county commissioners -- they know because she'd be down there raising [inaudible] all the time. She's gotten awards from them, too. She would take the whole team down to the city council with all their trophies, and medals, and plaques and everything. She would do stuff like that, and she'd be shorter than everybody in the crowd. As far as the track part, to me, she's better known across the country than she really is in Durham because they know Doc. They know Coach Doc. You go to Charlotte, everybody down there knows Doc. You go up to Maryland, they know Doc. And all these people that used to come to Duke for our track meets, from New York and all these other places: Mexico [and] Puerto Rico. The guy from Bermuda? I talk to him all the time. He's only missed one meet in all these years we've been having it, and he says, "Man, we sure miss Doc. Miss Doc." He was on the committee. We had a little small committee that Doc would head up for this meet, where we'd pick outstanding athletes. And, for each age group, 8 and under, 9, 10, 11, 12, we'd have a boy and girl outstanding athletes. And Doc had Cal Simons, the guy from Bermuda, had a guy from Maryland, Henry McCallum, and my brother Donald Davis, [who was in the] Hall of Fame and all that stuff in North Carolina. I'm in the Hall of Fame [for] track and field. They would sit down in this room and evaluate performances and pick these athletes. She would head that up. She made sure those little kids got picked right. She didn't care about the older kids. They know her. Like I said, every place in the track and field world, they know Doc. They don't know what we do in Durham. Not many people know what we do, all the stuff we're doing, still doing. I see people [and they say], "Oh, y'all still exist?" Yeah. I remember back in the day and that old bus we had. I used to have it parked at my house. I used to drive that thing across town [because we] used to practice at North Carolina Central (North Carolina Central University). I used to leave my house in Old Farm, go down through Bragtown, picking up kids, go through Bluefield, go through Turnkey, come on down to the track. Because these parents wouldn't bring them to practice. Some of these parents we never saw, but I used to do that every track practice. Driving that old bus, that old raggedy bus through town, picking up kids. AM 1:05:04 Do you know of any other community organizations that Dr. Armstrong was involved with? FD 1:05:12 I know she was very involved with her church. She was big time in the church. She was part of committees and boards and all that stuff, but I don't know of any other organization that she spent time with like she did us. She was there. She didn't miss any practices unless she had to go out of town or had something that was really important at Duke. I think she stayed in Durham because of the track program. She had opportunities to have jobs all over the country. I know she was being recruited a lot of places. But I'm pretty sure that our track program is the reason that she stayed. That's why I stayed. I [experienced] the same thing when I worked at IBM in engineering. I could have gone a lot of different places, but I was involved in this program. And I saw how important it was to these kids, and that's why I did it. People would say, "Why [do] you do this?" That's why. That's why she did it. She was tough, [but] she was good. You know, I called Doc. We talked a lot, just one on one about stuff. And she would [ask] me about putting somebody off the team because they did -- I said, "Doc, why you asking me? You go on and do it." She'd say, "I wanted to get your approval." I said, "No." She was just an amazing person. You just wouldn't believe it. I don't know what else -- have you heard from any other groups she's been involved in? AM 1:07:01 I've come across a lot of her involvement, I believe, with St. Titus Episcopal Church? FD 1:07:06 That's the church. AM 1:07:07 Yes. I came across some of her involvement with them, but it was really the Striders. So, I was just wondering if you had any insight as to other organizations? FD 1:07:21 I know she was always [a] guest speaker at stuff. She would do a lot of stuff. My niece wanted Doc to come speak at UNCG. She would go over there and speak. She would do a lot of stuff. All you had to do was ask, and people love to hear her talk about things. She was very intelligent. She could get serious about stuff because, around tracks, it's a different environment. Once you get out in the real world -- and like I said, a lot of people contributed to our program because of Doc. Well, you know, the students gave us some money, right? AM 1:08:07 I didn't know about that. FD 1:08:08 They had a fundraiser at Duke in Doc's honor. You know how much they gave us? [Do you know] how much your students raised? $23,000. I have that big old check now sitting on my wall. But that was Duke students, medical students that did that. They had some kind of performance on campus, a fundraiser. And they donated the proceeds to us. AM 1:08:32 Were those Duke Medical students? FD 1:08:34 Yeah, Duke medical students. AM 1:08:37 Were any of those students the ones -- I know you said that Dr. Armstrong brought some of the medical students to perform physicals for some of your athletes -- was there any overlap between those groups? FD 1:08:53 There was a couple. There was overlap. And they were involved. They came out and actually volunteered to work some of the track meets. They would come out and do some of the track meets on the medical side. In shifts -- they're not going to stay out there all day. [They] might come in an hour or two, and then somebody else would come in later on. Somebody said, "Doc asking for volunteers [is] almost like she's telling you, 'You got to be there.'" They loved it though. They loved dealing with those kids. It was nice because they had a chance to get physicals free. We made sure they had physicals, and we did run across some kids that had issues. We had some little kids that had high blood pressure. She ran into one guy that was really good in high school. Doc shut him down for the school because she did physicals for Southern High School, too. He's running now. Kaleb McRae [is] at Alabama. He has the fastest time in the world right now in the 400. Just over, I believe, 00:45:01 in the 400. He's running for Alabama. Doc had him run in the 800 [when he was little]. She would love it. I think he'll end up making the Olympic team. He made the world team last year. He's one of Doc's. Kaleb McRae, and like I said, they all have to come through her at some point. She knows them. They knew how she was. Total respect. Nobody disrespects Doc. She demanded respect. She could be hard, and she [would] let you know how she feels. We argued all the time because sometimes she's wrong. I mean, she may want to do something one way. Both ways may work, but I would tell her, based on experience, this is what I think we need to do. That kind of stuff. We would agree. AM 1:11:33 As we're winding down the interview, is there anything else you want to share about Dr. Armstrong? Any specific memories you have with her that you feel comfortable sharing? FD 1:11:43 The biggest memory I have of Doc is the way she was -- the way these little kids looked up to Doc, how they performed for Doc. You wouldn't believe these kids because, like I said, they were out there breaking national records. You'd be nuts to say anything about Doc. We went to a track meet in Miami and Doc -- I don't know why Doc did this -- but you know those parents running those relays? Doc decided to run a doggone relay, and she went and borrowed some spikes from some of these kids running. She went out there and fell. She was running and tripped with those spikes on. Those kids got mad. "Don't y'all be laughing at our coach." Boy, they got mad because people were laughing at Doc. I remember that. And then, I remember instances with Doc. She had some pictures of us pushing that bus up a hill in the mountains around Asheville. The bus broke down. The kids [were] pushing the bus up the mountain. She took pictures of it. And then, snow coming back from Delaware one time and Doc's van -- the first van she had was an old van. I think Doc blew three tires, not at the same time. And, luckily, a couple of vans we had had spares. Doc had to buy four brand new tires once we got up there, hauling these kids. And then, the van seemed like it would cut off on you. [It] wouldn't start. We had one coach that could start that thing. We went through a lot of stuff before we got to where we are now. But we still took these kids and didn't worry about [it]. We've had buses breaking down, and seemed like we always made it. It never got to the point where we broke down and didn't make the trip. We went to Atlanta one time, again with Doc following us. We drove 45 miles an hour on I-85, all the way down there. That bus wouldn't run any more than 45. We got to Atlanta, and they had to change the whole transmission in the bus. And one of my coaches got them to change transmission in one day. Because of Doc, again, her influence and talking to people. She wouldn't hesitate now. Another thing about Doc. She would always be first. If we were traveling in the caravan, she was the first car behind the bus. And then we'd get in town. We'd go into Atlanta, anyplace. She'd take off. She wanted to be the first one there and get lost someplace. She got lost in Miami one time, and then went all the way back to the hotel, asking people how to get to the track. My brother was following in another van, and he almost ran out of gas, just a lot of fun-type stuff. And then we had a bus that -- it'd all be blowing out the bus. You'd look at the windshield -- her car had [it] all over the windshield, but that was Doc. She was right behind that bus. Those were the fun times on these trips. And we always made it. We would always leave a day ahead of time. Like if we were going to Maryland [and we had] to be there on Wednesday, we'd leave on Monday or Tuesday because we knew it was going to break down. I'm serious. We knew. That's the way we travel. Over the years, it changed. We ended up getting a nice air-conditioned bus, and the kids traveled well. We always stay at a nice hotel. We didn't stay in dumps, like a lot of teams. I'd always go out to negotiate for a good rate. Then we'd have people asking us, "Are you coming back next year?" They're always asking us to come back to their hotel because of the way the kids act. And it's all because of Doc. There's so much stuff that I could talk about. I'd be here all day, telling you about some of the things that happened with her. But she was just an amazing individual. And at her funeral, I spoke, but a lot of people at Duke didn't know she was coaching track. She was the coach of the year at one time in the United States. Then, some of our parents and kids -- they'd just say Coach Doc. They didn't know she was a doctor. I'd say, "Yeah. She's a real doctor." But she kept it separate. That's what she did. AM 1:17:11 We really appreciate you coming to talk to us and telling us about her involvement with the Striders because, as you mentioned, you know, we don't know a lot about that side of her. So, just as we're wrapping up, I have a couple of things. If you could give us a production-style introduction. So, for example, I would say, “My name is Ava Meigs, and I'm an undergraduate student at Duke.” If you could give us a similar kind of introduction, just for the production of the interview. FD 1:17:43 My name is Frank Davis. I'm Head Coach and President of Durham Striders Youth Association. AM 1:19:05 Perfect, and then we just need about 15 seconds of silence, just to get the room tone. I think we're good.
Topic Log
00:02 Introduction 00:26 Introduction and explanation of relationship to Dr. Armstrong 01:06 Armstrong’s childhood in Rocky Mount; early influences and experiences that drew her to medicine 02:10 Armstrong’s involvement in the Durham community (St. Titus Episcopal Church, Durham Striders Youth Association, Student National Medical Association, etc.) 04:14 Impact of the dearth of Black physicians and medical professionals 05:49 Armstrong’s work as Associate Dean of Admissions; recruiting students from underrepresented communities and backgrounds 07:22 On-site visits conducted by Armstrong to increase interest in science and medicine; Summer Enrichment Program to expose students to advanced coursework and clinical practice 10:23 Armstrong’s mentor-mentee relationships formed through the Summer Enrichment Program 10:50 Armstrong’s outreach to younger students through the activities of the Student National Medical Association 12:20 HPREP Program 13:49 Armstrong’s work with the Student National Medical Association as a mentor and faculty advisor 15:03 Armstrong’s role in building community for recruited students; creation of the Multicultural Resource Center 20:09 Specifics on the Summer Enrichment Program and its eventual termination at Duke 23:42 Armstrong’s impact on the core values of the School of Medicine; role in creating space for open dialogue 25:37 Armstrong’s experiences as an undergraduate student at Duke and their impact on her work in admissions; Allen Building Takeover 27:23 “Pushback” to equity initiatives 30:18 Race and gender-based barriers faced by Armstrong and other Black faculty; creation of a Black community within the School of Medicine 31:52 Armstrong’s allies within Duke faculty and administration; national support 33:45 Armstrong’s influence on colleagues at other institutions; campus visits 34:30 Armstrong’s role in the medical school admissions process; conducting interviews of candidates 37:28 Armstrong’s reputation among her patients; practice of holistic care 39:32 More on Armstrong’s Durham community involvement (Links, Jack and Jill, etc.) 40:45 Armstrong’s vision for the path to institutional equity at Duke; overcoming individual differences 41:53 Armstrong’s impact on Duke 43:48 Armstrong’s interdisciplinary work within Duke 45:20 Armstrong’s involvement in health policy; hypertension advocacy 46:57 Dr. Wigfall’s memories of Dr. Armstrong; Armstrong as a friend and neighbor; Armstrong’s possessions 49:08 Honoring Dr. Armstrong’s Legacy through the Duke Centennial Celebration
Full Transcript
Ava Meigs 0:02 My name is Ava Meigs. The date is February 18, 2024. We're recording in Perkins Library and I'm interviewing Dr. Delbert Wigfall for the Agents of Change Oral History Project. So, to start, could you just tell me a little bit about yourself and your relationship with Dr. Brenda Armstrong? Delbert Wigfall 0:26 Briefly, I came to Duke in 1987 as an Assistant Professor, relatively speaking, of Pediatrics and Pediatric Nephrology. I had known Dr. Armstrong over a period of years because I had friends who matriculated at the School of Medicine from undergraduate school, and I had been in and out of town and would run into her periodically, but [this] was the first time that I actually had an opportunity to work with her. So, I knew her in that context. And when I came, we became friends and colleagues because she, too, was in the Department of Pediatrics. AM 1:06 Do you know anything about her childhood in Rocky Mount - just to kind of get an understanding of her life and her work? DW 1:16 She had talked about it periodically. Her father was a practicing physician. So, she used to make house calls with him. So, I think her entry and interest in medicine was early. And her dad did a really good job of pointing out the necessity of caring for people who were disenfranchised, so that was a big draw for her. I think it became sort of a mission. AM 1:42 So, her father played a big role in her pursuing science and medicine here at Duke? DW 1:47 Yeah, and she had a brother who also had cerebral palsy from some birth trauma of some sort. I never really knew the details of that. But I think seeing the kinds of issues that he had, in terms of obtaining appropriate care, also impacted heavily on her. AM 2:10 How would you describe the way she related to others in her life - colleagues, friends? DW 2:18 Everybody was a family member. I think she was appropriately and very judiciously scattered. She was a pediatric cardiologist at a time when there were very few African American pediatric cardiologists. Much like myself, there weren't more than a handful of pediatric nephrologists at the time when we were training and starting our faculty appointments. So, there was this sense of isolation that made us seek each other out, relatively speaking. She was also a lifelong Episcopalian. She was entrenched in a church here, a small Black parish here. I met her in that context, as well, because she played the organ and, sometimes, I would sing with the choir. We used some of the same babysitters, some of whom came from the church. She was heavily invested in the Striders and a lot of local sports groups in general -- so much so that she, early on, dragged me into working with the SNMA, the Student National Medical Association, doing physicals on kids who were participating in city league football, primarily, and even some public-school football programs. It was a good way for them to get accustomed to dealing with adolescents who are crazy. But, more so, getting an opportunity to do a normal exam, for the most part -- not to say that we didn't find murmurs, or we didn't find some joint things, but it was nice because it was low-pressure. And then, between the two of us, we could help get them in to see someone else if that need be. So, she did a little of everything aside from being a parent. She was very invested in the community and she was very invested in people's health. AM 4:14 You mentioned that she was one of the only African American cardiologists at the time. How else do you think that affected her work -- besides, you know, having to really intentionally seek out community? DW 4:28 Well, it was at a time when there really weren't many people of color matriculating in medical school in general. And it was one of the first recognitions that that was a necessity. The whole idea of concurrence, in terms of culture and care, was becoming more evident. The number of people who were trying to pursue medicine was relatively stagnant. So, the percentage of [minority] applicants to medical school in 1970 is roughly the same as it is now, which is unfortunate given that the population has grown. So, we were impacted by the fact that there was a paucity of persons who look like us, particularly in academic medicine. That hasn't changed. There is a paucity of people in subspecialty programs in general. And, unfortunately, that hasn't changed either. Not only are you cognizant of the fact that there are people who need your expertise, but there are a bunch of kids who need to know that they can do that, too, as both practicing and modeling. So, all of that becomes a part of what impacts you, I think, when you start in a profession like ours. AM 5:49 Leading off of that, can you tell me about her work as Associate Dean of Admissions? DW 5:59 Yes. I was just trying to decide how best to even begin. I know well the person who was the Dean of Admissions prior to Brenda, and I remember when they were recruiting for a person. And, as it turned out, when she was both invited and interviewed, she was the only person of color who interviewed for the position. And, as I said, that was at a point in time when, nationally, there was an effort to increase the number of minorities who were involved in health and health education. So, it became sort of an expectation, actually a mission, for her to bring diversity to the School of Medicine in terms of the student population. And it changed drastically under her guidance. I think there were much more active efforts to recruit from underrepresented schools and to recruit underrepresented students in general. When you start to create a community, I think the community becomes aware. So, it became easier to find really talented people who wanted to be at Duke. And we extended the family, so to speak, with the number of students who came under her guidance. AM 7:22 What kinds of specific initiatives did she institute to recruit those underrepresented students? DW 7:29 She was doing on-site visits as one thing, and she would very frequently visit campuses just to talk about health education and health as a profession. In addition, we had, for a number of years, a summer program, a summer enrichment program. It was enrichment in that we didn't necessarily try to remediate any one's academic standing. We took students who were average, literally intentionally, and gave them both exposure to advanced science coursework and clinical opportunities, so that they could see what it was like to practice medicine, to learn medicine. We had anywhere from 80 to 120 [students] over the years, and the program was in existence for probably 15-16 summers. So, we had undergraduate students who were from around the country. A fair number of them were underrepresented folks, but a fair number were also disadvantaged. So, they could be majority students who had no resources to speak of and still needed that encouragement and that leg up. So, all of these students were brought into campus and basically shown that they could achieve in a place like Duke with a very rigorous summer program. They were actually doing advanced chemistry, advanced biology, writing, a humanities course, interpersonal skills, [etc.] Every week, they had a clinical opportunity, where they took a shift in one of the acute care units. And that was part of what I did. Brenda initiated a medical physiology course for that summer program, and I taught in that as well. She taught cardiology, and I taught renal. So, we had a myriad of ways to try to bring people in, to try to get them engaged, not only with health and health professions, but also with Duke. So, we had a fair number of students who would come through those programs, who would apply for medical admission. 10 years ago, we had five or six faculty who had come through those programs. So, the kind of efforts that we put forth really were very productive, much more so than a lot of pipeline programs or pathway programs, as they are affectionately called now. So, those kinds of efforts were things that she did because it seemed like the right thing to do. It was a labor of love. It wasn't truly an effort, necessarily, because we really enjoyed it. It was a lot of work, but we enjoyed engaging with the students. AM 10:23 Did she form any close mentor-mentee relationships through those programs? DW 10:29 Oh, definitely. There are still people that we hear from who were graduates of those programs. And, of course, we had those folks who either did our program or did similar programs who matriculated at Duke, and we still have close ties with them, as well. AM 10:50 Did any of this recruitment work ever involve outreach to younger students -- say elementary, middle school, K-12 education? DW 11:03 Yes, in part through the activities of the SNMA. As it turned out, we had a group of students who became really interested in elementary school children. [They] created a partnership with a local elementary school and started bringing the third graders over for days on campus. They would get shown around, and they would get to play with organs and get pumped up. And, of course, they were just excited to be out. But it was really good to give them early glimpses into health and health care. But, at that point in time, we did a fair number of visits. We were invited to go to elementary schools, to junior high schools, to high schools. And, then as students, of course, we're engaged with the high school students, as well, through the HPREP Program with the SNMA and through health, wellness, and sexuality through the School of Medicine. So, we have a lot of fingers sort of interdigitating. While we were not directly involved or in control of those efforts, they became extensions of what we were trying to do in the community. AM 12:20 Can you tell me a little bit more about that HPREP Program you mentioned? DW 12:23 The HPREP Program is actually a national program with the SNMA. Basically, what they do is identify kids who are in high school, primarily, who have interest in health careers. And, they have about an eight week [program]: Saturdays on campus, where they get lectures on general health topics. They get the opportunity to present work that they have sought out themselves, at least in terms of health and health conditions. So, they learn presentation skills, they learn questioning, [and] they learn interview techniques. They get on-the-job training in a soft way. But because they are doing some independent work, as well, at the end of the summer, they award scholarships to the students who are particularly outstanding, who are graduating and going on to college. So, that's actually been in existence for years. AM 13:19 And was Dr. Armstrong heavily involved with that or involved with it? DW 13:23 Dr. Armstrong and several of us in the School of Medicine, basically, were always a part of what the SNMA did. If they weren't at her house -- and most of the time I said, "Go to her house" -- they came to my house. So, from the standpoint of social interactions and engagement and encouragement, yeah, that was part of it, too. AM 13:49 What was the nature of her involvement or her relationship with the SNMA? DW 13:56 The SMMA utilized her expertise as a mentor [and] as a faculty advisor. It didn't escape them that she had had longevity with Duke. She'd had a lot of experiences on campus, but also matriculating. So, there are a lot of things that become inherent to that process that, sometimes, you have to go through to be able to tell people how to survive them. And I, very often, have told folks, including a couple of deans, that you don't necessarily have to be fully accomplished to mentor. In fact, sometimes, if you figured out how to get across ditches in your career path, you're probably just as good at helping people to navigate. So, some of it comes from not always succeeding, but just achieving. AM 14:53 So, she helped organize some of those mentors for students and get that, kind of, on the ground here at Duke? DW 15:01 Yeah. AM 15:03 So, you mentioned a lot about her work recruiting these students of color and underrepresented students, but what was her role in building community for them once they were here at Duke? DW 15:15 She beat up everybody else and made them do it. I say that half-jokingly, but I thought about it, and very early in my tenure here at Duke, we met as a group in what was the old Oak Room, the old faculty commons in the dining hall. The people who were in those meetings were, primarily, ostensibly, three of the first folks -- first persons of color -- who became full professors, in the School of Medicine: myself, Brenda, and maybe one or two other people. That was at a time when it was very common to have offices of minority affairs, which predates all of you. [Interviewee gestured to interviewers]. But at that point, it was really in vogue to say you had an Office of Minority Affairs, which was theoretically going to take care of creating a home for students of color. But very often, what we found in those offices were, if there were problems that came up, they went there and stayed there. There was not necessarily a lot of sharing and a lot of empowerment, in terms of those offices really being able to make changes. So, while there was no such thing here at Duke, we decided that there should not be such a thing here at Duke. So, with her encouragement, as well as the other faculty people, and with the assistance of a person who's still working in the office that became known as the Multicultural Resource Center, we basically created, intentionally, an office, not necessarily to promote simply people of color, but to promote understanding and acceptance. So, we called ourselves “multicultural” because we didn't want to necessarily be arbitrarily associated with any group. So, for the first three to five years, we were fairly heavily endowed. We were fortunate to get some foundation money, and because we did, we got some fledgling efforts off, in terms of trying to create some changes in curriculum. We started a Black History Brown Bag Lunch Series. We brought faculty to campus for visiting professorships. And we allowed students who were interested in going someplace and learning about a culture different than their own -- we could kick-start them with, generally, enough money for them to travel. A lot of the places didn't really require much on-ground, but it might require $1,000, $1,500, $2,000 in airfare and transportation costs. So, we had the ability to do that. And, when we started doing that, everybody, I'm sure, was wondering how that was all going to turn out. And, after about three years, we looked at the population of students who had taken advantage of those programs and about 70 or 80% of them were majority students. So, we had subtly legitimized our effort by pointing out the fact that we were benefiting broadly the School of Medicine. That office has continued, and we've continued to advocate for students -- to be a site for grievances [and] working through harassments. We've worked in that spectrum of activities with students, with residents, with fellows, [and] with faculty, and a lot of that was because of the impetus that was generated through those early discussions with Brenda and the other faculty people. And it worked, and I think, for the time being, it still works. So, we'll have to see how that goes forward. As I said, I've been here for 36 years -- I just retired -- but the office is still there. AM 19:31 Would you say that the Office of Multicultural Affairs had support from the white faculty? DW 19:40 Oh, definitely, definitely. I think we had broad base support from the School of Medicine. We started off as being a fledgling office, unaffiliated, and, ultimately, became directly aligned with the Office of Curriculum, the academic arm of the School of Medicine. So, all of our activities were known commodities and supported, actually, by hard money through the School of Medicine. AM 20:09 So, you would say that these initiatives that she [Dr. Armstrong] helped institute were, generally, successful in diversifying the School of Medicine? DW 20:18 Yeah. The summer program ended up ending, not necessarily because we failed. We were actually considered the program to emulate in the country because we did things like -- all of our curriculum was online. They [the students] didn't necessarily have to have a book. They needed a computer, [and] we had computers if they didn't have computers. So, we gave them all of the tools they needed to succeed once they got here: they got a white coat; they got a laptop; they had a place to live; they got food; they got transportation; [and] they got a little spending change. So, a lot of what you needed during the summer was definitely taken care of. What happened was a shift in the intent of the program: they decided that they wanted to have a program that was really of interest to people who were doing medical school or dental school. So, they wanted campuses where both schools were on the campus. Of course, we have no dental school. So, we ended up being cut out. There's still some possibility that that's going to restart though. But Brenda was an inherent part [in] successfully matriculating all of those efforts. Those were NIH [National Institutes of Health] and AAMC, American Association of Medical Colleges supported. AM 21:43 Who were some of the other faculty members who participated in that summer program? DW 21:51 Oh, that's a harder question to answer, in some respects, because some of them were undergraduate instructors. We had undergraduate faculty from North Carolina Central, a couple from here at Duke, [and] a couple from Elon. So, they weren't, necessarily, names or faces that you would be able to identify easily. I worked with the clinical clerkships, with all of the physicians who were in charge of critical care units throughout the hospital and the emergency room, so that we could get them into ICUs [intensive care units] in the pediatric setting, the surgical setting, and the medical setting. And it really gave them an opportunity, not only to work with physicians, but also to work with other extenders. So, they saw nurses; they saw respiratory therapists; PT [physical therapy]; OT [occupational therapy]; even dietitians and social workers. So, they got a real sense of what it was like to actually care, as a team, for a patient. So, there were lots and lots of nameless faces, all of whom did this because it was a feel-good activity. The students were so pumped up, and they were so excited about just being there. That becomes infectious. AM 23:09 Would you say the program affected, kind of, how they approached their own career paths? DW 23:17 Yes, definitely, and, even more so going forward. We have students who came through those programs, who now have completed their medical education, their residencies, in some cases, fellowships, and now they're starting programs like that themselves. I don't think you can even envision a better compliment. AM 23:42 Would you say that Dr. Armstrong changed the core values of the School of Medicine? DW 23:50 You can approach that answer in two ways. Having just attended a [inaudible] last night where they said you couldn't retrain a brain, but you could at least impact a heart and maybe the heart would affect what the brain was thinking -- I think there was a lot that was pointed out to people that they may not have been aware of. I think, even at this point, we're learning so much about each other and the kinds of buttons that get pushed, almost invisibly, that people end up getting, as I affectionately like to say, their shorts in a knot, and not necessarily with ill-meaning purpose. So, I think one of the things that she did was make it okay to talk about differences and to talk about how people are perceived, and to make it okay not to know the right thing. It's a very critical lesson. We don't necessarily like to take chances. We don't want to be wrong, and we don't want to wrong anyone intentionally. But you can, accidentally, and you can learn from that. If you learn from that, you avoid the same mistakes. I think that kind of change is something that she brought. She brought an acknowledgement and an acceptance that underrepresented students may not come necessarily with the same ammunition, but they can fight just as hard as anybody else. AM 25:30 So, it sounds like she created space for that kind of dialogue where there wasn't space before. DW 25:35 Yes. AM 25:37 How do you think her experiences as an undergraduate, here at Duke, informed her work in the School of Medicine? DW 25:51 I guess it's safe to say Brenda was somewhat of a rabble rouser when she was an undergraduate. That may be an understatement. But I think what she manifested because of that was brutal honesty. There's a lot to be said for saying exactly what you feel with clarity, and not necessarily vindictiveness or evil intent. I've been told a couple of times that I'd say things that folks need to hear, even when they don't want to. And I think that that's a reality. Sometimes, even in patient care, there are times when you have to tell people something that's really not what they want to hear. But you need to be very concrete to make sure that they hear it well, so that you can then try to move past it. Brenda came from an era when it was expected for folks to express their discontent, as well as their content, and to expect people to respect that and to make changes appropriately. AM 27:04 Did she tell you anything about her undergraduate experiences -- anything about the Allen Building Sit-in? DW 27:10 She talked about it periodically, but she talked about it as a thing. She didn't talk about it, necessarily, from the perspective of how she felt. AM 27:23 So, getting back to her work in the School of Medicine, did she tell you about any pushback she may have experienced to some of those initiatives [that reached] out to underrepresented students? DW 27:42 Pushback is a loaded term and it's a loaded word. It sounds like an accusation if I say yes, but I think it's safe to say -- as a case in point, when we started the MRC, the then Vice Dean for Medical Education said to me that the kinds of things that we wanted to do to change the culture and the air of communication in the School of Medicine were things that not everybody would fully embrace. He said, "Sometimes, you can't teach old dogs new tricks." That was almost a direct quote. And, I said to him, "Well, sometimes old dogs die." And I realize that that's sort of mean. Yeah, I guess it is a little bit caustic. There are always people who are not going to be happy. There is no one in the world who can make everyone happy. I mean, even Mother Teresa, right? People complained about her. So, I think it's inevitable that Brenda would rub some people the wrong way. Part of it is, you have to listen to the message and not the messenger. Sometimes, you need to hear what's being said. You take exception with it and blame it on the person, rather than the circumstances that are being addressed. So, yes, I think it is very clear that there were people who were not necessarily endeared to her line of thinking, but that didn't stop her. AM 29:30 Where would you say that kind of -- I know, pushback, kind of a loaded term -- but where would you say that was mainly coming from -- like the faculty members, administration, some combination? DW 29:42 I think it came from everywhere and at every level. I think, clearly, there were faculty and administrators who were not initially on board. But I think the same thing could be true of students. I think the kinds of ills that cause us to have the biggest issues with each other in life are not necessarily generational because, if they were, a lot of them would have died off instead of increasing. AM 30:18 Did she tell you about any kind of race or gender-based barriers she faced? DW 30:30 She never mentioned anything to me about gender-based stuff, but I know that she had really close women friends, some of whom were people that she matriculated with, and I suspect that they probably did have some discussions about some of those issues. Race? Yes. You know, I think it goes without saying. I think there are a lot of people on this campus and in the School of Medicine who you would not, necessarily, be able to identify as being of a racial group by their phenotype, or by their appearance. We don't have that luxury. Right? So, there's not a day that we're not aware that our skin is brown, browner than a lot, that we are of the Black race or African American race, or however you care to define it. Those things affect how you approach each day and every situation and every circumstance. So, I think that that's something that she shared with a lot of people. What it does is create a community -- there are things that we don't have to say to each other. [We] just understand. AM 31:52 So, did she have any allies, among her fellow faculty members or among the administration? DW 32:02 Yes. I think, as hard as some issues could be, she had a lot of support from tons of people here on campus. Including, the president of the university. I think we went through a period of time when it was pretty common, at least with us -- we knew everybody: the president, the provost, the chancellors. We just knew people. And, because of that, it was always nice to have meaningful discussion with folks even if they didn't agree, even if they didn't want to support you, if you felt like you were heard. And, [if] some justification was given for whatever the decision was, that was acceptable. You move along. There were lots of people who were supportive of her. Nationally, there were a lot of people who were supportive, and we got a lot of recognition. At one point, we had more African American men in medical school than any other majority institution in the country. The only places that had more were the HBCUs [Historically Black Colleges and Universities], which was no small feat. Of course, that didn't persist. But some of that's time, some of that's the change in demographics in the people who are applying for medical school now -- the number of Black men in general who are entering medicine has changed. So, when you look at the percentages, the percentages haven't changed a whole lot, but it's because the sexes have changed, or the genders. AM 33:45 Did any of her colleagues at other universities reach out to her and ask her how they can implement some of those initiatives that she started and, kind of, get their numbers where hers were? DW 34:01 Yes. We participated nationally with a bunch of discussions, particularly with private schools of medicine, across the country. And there are a number of schools who really emulated what was happening in admissions, both in process and what was happening in terms of student support with the MRC. We literally had people come who would visit campus, stay for a few days and learn, and take those processes back to their campuses. It was very impactful. AM 34:30 So, we've been talking a lot about her programs that she helped run and start. But did she also, just individually, work with students who were applying to medical school? Did she interview any of them, or was her work more on the upper levels of administration? DW 34:50 Well, initially, we had the more commonplace methodology, in terms of interviews. Students would come and they'd do a half an hour with one faculty, a half an hour with another faculty, a half an hour with her [Dr. Armstrong], and then they would get a tour with students. So, she literally interviewed everybody who came as an applicant for medical school. [We switched] to a different methodology, where students go through vignettes, 10 or 12 different vignettes, for just a couple of minutes at a time. And it's nice because it's a little bit more disarming. It's not quite as stifling as having to sit in one room, stare at one person for a half an hour, and try to keep them awake. So, when the methodology shifted, she still met with students. So, what happens even now, the students are met with first thing in the morning and last thing in the evening. Usually, somebody from admissions anchors the day for them in a way that allows them to have an appreciation and for us to get feedback, too. Now, of course, with virtual, I'm not sure exactly how all that works out. But hopefully it's -- well, yes, it's different. It's very different. AM 36:19 So, would you say that she played a role, even just within those interviews, in helping get some of those students from underrepresented backgrounds to come to Duke? DW 36:28 She worked really hard to get students to come to Duke. There are faculty here who are here because of her. Sometimes, when you come and you meet folks who resonate with you, in terms of where their headspace is and the kinds of things that they say, particularly when they feel obligated to be of help, when they're not so full of themselves to pontificate about their worthiness -- but, really, how you can help make things better for people --- you find folks who become like-minded. So, even at the time when she left this world, the people who came forth and said, "I'm a faculty person because of her," were from every department on this campus. AM 37:28 Kind of switching gears a little bit now, what was her reputation among her patients and the people she saw? DW 37:37 She was a beast. She was untiringly engaged with them in terms of their care, and adamant that they get the best of care. She was unapologetic about that. So, if she felt like somebody was not getting what they needed, she would make it happen. So, if patients had issues, they were very comfortable coming to her. And they knew that she was going to help, even patients who didn't have heart issues. There were a number of patients that I saw because Dr. Armstrong called me and said, "Can you see this kid?" And I never said no, and I think that that's true across the board. So, she had a reputation for being engaged in a way that's just very caring, very natural. AM 38:30 Would you say that she practiced a more holistic approach to care? DW 38:35 That's a nice way of putting it. There are those things that are heart-related, but what you find, particularly in our subspecialties -- and even pulmonary, gastroenterology, hematology, particularly with the sickle-cell kids -- when they have a chronic condition, it affects not only their health, but their growth, their sense of well-being, their ego. And it destroys families, or can destroy families. If the kid really requires a lot of help, parents get really stressed out, siblings get really pissed off. You have to be able to manage people. And, sometimes, it's just giving them permission to be unhappy. AM 39:32 You mentioned the Durham Striders earlier and her involvement with St. Titus Episcopal. Do you know of any other community organizations that she was involved with? DW 39:49 That's hard. I think she was in the Links, or she was in Jack and Jill. Both of them are African American-based community things that are, in some situations, family-oriented. There are people here who know. There's Jeanine Holland. I don't know whether you talked to her or are planning to talk to her. Jeanine is a staff assistant in the Office of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion in the School of Medicine with Dr. Thomas. She's a member of the community, and had worked with Brenda for decades in the admissions office before she went over -- also with the Striders. So, she's really well versed in terms of her community engagement outside of the church. AM 40:45 What do you think Dr. Armstrong saw as the path toward institutional equity at Duke? DW 40:58 Another loaded question. I think part of what she saw is what she encouraged, which is probably a sense of clarity, integrity, frankness, [and] acceptance. I mean, the kinds of things that allow you to have best friends. Right? Because a best friend isn't necessarily somebody that you want to be with all the time. Oftentimes, not at all. It's not someone necessarily that you agree with all the time because we're all individuals. But you can respect that person for who they are because you know that they care about you, unequivocally and vice versa. It would be a great thing if everybody could be of the same mind, where differences weren't so necessary, particularly now. AM 41:53 How would you say that Dr. Armstrong -- I mean, another loaded question -- how would you say that she impacted Duke? DW 42:01 She loved what she did. I think her impact was on so many different levels: encouraging careers in academic medicine; public health initiatives, not only in medicine, but in other health-related fields. Some of the folks who came through the summer program -- I used to routinely tell them, as did she, that there's enough work to be done that you don't necessarily have to be a physician. You can be a lawyer and still help improve things, in terms of health and healthcare. Business, social work, psychology -- it's not necessary that everybody come through and be of the same lockstep. So, the[re are] possibilities of contributing to making things better. [It’s about] having a sense or an appreciation for what you can do. I often tell folks now, as would she, you're not a number. So, if your grade slips on x, if your test score [slips] on y -- does that, arbitrarily, totally identify you as? And it doesn't? Everybody is complicated and complex. So, when you look at people, you really need to look at them more holistically. That was what became a big push in admissions and admissions practices throughout the country. And it's sort of the bane of everyone's existence now. AM 43:48 Did she do a lot of interdisciplinary work -- working with different departments across campus? DW 43:56 We all did. We availed ourselves of the university wide, in terms of discussion and encouragement. The people who became involved in health education in the School of Medicine included people from almost every aspect of campus and campus life. Part of that was intentional, and part of it was an offshoot of the students taking advantage of the kinds of opportunities that could be afforded to them in [their] third year with independent study practices. I, myself, actually [inaudible] a divinity school seminar course because a student was taking it, and she said the instructor was fabulous. So, I said, "I want to go see." So, I did, and when I did, I became so intrigued that I stayed for the entire semester. I was welcome there, but [it’s about] those kinds of relationships and the ability to engage in dialogue with people of different professional career paths. It's nice to be able to indulge that. And not only do you communicate and learn about them, but you learn how they can help other people. AM 45:20 Did she ever do any work on the health policy side of things? Any advocacy regarding North Carolina laws? DW 45:35 She did. Brenda and some of the people whom she trained, actually, have been at the forefront of identifying and treating, appropriately, adolescents with hypertension. We have folks now who are engaged in looking at obesity, type two diabetes, and hypertension in adolescents because it's a problem. So, those kinds of things, where you could make a change in the environment or in the expectations of people and get them to take care of themselves -- even something as simple as working with the Striders, right? It was not because she wanted, necessarily, the best track team in the country -- although, it was -- but she wanted a team of people who learn how to work with each other and learn how to be the best person they can be. So, they didn't all have to look alike, they didn't all have to run as fast as the next, but they had to feel as though they had achieved something more at the end than they did at the beginning. AM 46:44 Do you remember any of those specific policies that she fought for for hypertension? DW 46:54 Not particularly, you know? AM 46:57 Just as we're winding down, do you have any specific memories of Dr. Armstrong that you feel comfortable sharing? Anything that wasn't yet mentioned in the interview? DW 47:10 We've sort of gone round robin. Beyond everything else, not only was she a wonderful clinician and a very strong academician, she was a very good friend. She was literally, for the last 10 or 15 years of her life, one of my neighbors. She was a house away. So, not only [was she] a member of the community, but almost a member of the family. My mom used to like to go to her house and rock on her porch. So, yeah, there's a lot to be said on that level. AM 47:54 This might sound like a strange question, but do you remember anything that she kept in her office or in her house that showed what kind of person she was? DW 48:08 She kept stuff. And I know that sounds like -- she had a poster of voting rights and desegregation, 60s, 70s, which says a lot. So, that says a lot about her mindset and where she was. She had quilts. She had things that belonged to her parents. A lot of the stuff, like plaques and awards and photographs and statuettes and stuff, you didn't see. You know, she had them. She had a couple of things, but not a whole lot. She wasn't a person who would blow her own trumpet, necessarily. But she was very comfortable with who she was. AM 49:08 So, as we celebrate our centennial, how do you think we can best honor Dr. Armstrong's legacy? DW 49:21 We've been trying to do all kinds of things. That's a big question. That's a big ask because there are things like having an endowed chair that would speak volumes about an appreciation for what she did. We've talked about things like symposiums or community outreach efforts. There's so many things that she did because she had a love of people and really wanted to impact health disparities. That was one thing she did: she worked on a national panel of folks who wrote about the kinds of issues that led to unequal treatment. So, I think anything that immortalized what she saw as appropriate in terms of health care, or health policy, or care in general, would be great. AM 50:43 Just one last chance -- anything else to share about her that hasn't already been mentioned? DW 50:50 I don't think so. I don't think so. AM 50:55 [Inaudible] Sorry, one last thing. If we can just get a production-style introduction. So, for example, mine would be "My name is Ava Meigs, and I'm an undergraduate student at Duke." If you can just give us a similar introduction, just for the production of the interview and the final product? DW 51:27 Sure, a short bio sketch. I'm Delbert Wigfall. I am now an emeritus faculty in the Department of Pediatrics. I was a full professor in Pediatrics and Pediatric Nephrology Kidney Disease. I have a tenure at Duke for close to 36 years. I, in addition to practicing in the Department of Pediatrics, was an Associate Dean for Medical Education, did student advisement for 23 years, and I co-directed the Multicultural Resource Center for the School of Medicine from its inception until my retirement, so that was a period of 24-25 years. AM 52:18 Then if we could just get 15 seconds of silence just to capture the room tone for the recording? Perfect. Thank you again for coming in to talk with us and for helping us share Dr. Armstrong's story with this project. DW 52:44 You're welcome.