Charles Johnson
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0:00 Introduction to the interview on Dr. Charles Johnson. Charles Denton Johnson introduces himself and his relationship to Dr. Charles Johnson as his son. 1:10 Charles Denton Johnson gives some detail on Dr. Charles Johnson’s early life. 5:20 Early and late childhood stories with “Dad” and how it was having a physician as a father. 15:39 Detailed background into Dr. Johnson’s path from fighter pilot to later intended nuclear physicist, to becoming a doctor. 31:20 Significant allies to Dr. Johnson 37:31 Him and his fathers’ relationship with Dr. Eugene Stead. Charles Denton Johnson tells a memorable story of him and Eugene Stead. 42:01 The story of Dr. Eugene Stead appointing Dr. Johnson as the first black faculty member, from Lincoln Hospital to Duke. 47:50 How Dr. Charles Johnson brought about change daily. 56:24 How Dr. Johnson supported early Black medical students and served as a supportive father figure for many. 59:37 Backlack Dr. Johnson experienced from his community and the manner in which he dealt with it. 1:04:13 Continuing on how Charles senior created change daily; “staying in character” and remaining resilient. 1:07:52 The average day of Dr. Charles Johnson (his work, hobbies, and how his family saw him). 1:12:19 Charles Denton Johnson’s experience growing up in a community of successful Black professionals. 1:15:49 Dr. Johnsons remarkable bedside manner: how he cared deeply for his patients. A personal story intertwined in race and medicine from Charles Denton Johnson’s youth. 1:20:57 The defining moment of Dr. Johnson’s time at Duke University. 1:23:49 Dr. Johnson’s time as President of the National Medical Association. 1:29:37 How his father’s experiences shaped his own perspectives on the intersectionality of race and health. 1:32:46 The legacy of Dr. Charles Johnson with Duke and beyond. 1:34:57 Dr. Johnson’s involvement beyond Duke. 1:44:13 Dr. Johnson as an activist, advocate, and agent of change. 1:46:40 Final comments from his son.
Full Transcript
Danielle Okotcha 0:00 Hello, it's January 31st, 2024. I'm Daniela Okotcha, a second-year undergraduate at Duke University. I'm here with Charles Johnson, the son of the late Dr. Charles Johnson, for the Agents of Change Bass Connections oral history project. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited to capture your experience. Overall, we're trying to delve into the history of activism and advocacy within Duke Health, celebrating the centennial and today we'll be discussing Dr. Charles Johnson, the first Black faculty member of Duke Health. Would you like to introduce yourself? Charles Johnson Jr 0:36 Yes, my name is Charles Denton Johnson. Dr. Donald T. Moore, who was also here at Duke, delivered me in Lincoln Hospital (August 22nd 1965). I grew up here in Durham, came to Durham, my family came to Durham because of my father's opportunity to work at Lincoln Hospital and programs sponsored by Duke University to help African American physicians get specialized training in medicine. DO 1:10 Nice to meet you. Thank you for being here. So, um, kind of starting off. Dr. Charles Johnson was born in Acmar, Alabama. Could you describe his early life and how he grew up? CJJ 1:23 Right, so, yeah. So my father was born July 28, 1927, on the property at the Alabama Fuel and Coal company. His father was Charlie Johnson and was a laborer who worked alongside a mine. In that mine, those were fairly deep mines, some of them up to two miles deep. Dad's youth was spent trying to figure out how to get to something better. But as you can imagine, growing up in the Jim Crow south, at that time, being born literally right, as we're about to enter into the Great Depression and so forth, there was not a lot that he had that could create an image for him to imagine what the possibilities would be, limited as things were at that time. Today, we live in an era of flowering technology, and communication and travel in a way that just did not exist at that time. He found the promise of a better life and what he could get his hands on to read as a youngster. So at a very early age, he began to turn to comic books. And the like, to get some sense of what the wider world was really about. CJJ 3:08 He had an older brother, who was much older, named Thomas Lightfoot. His mother married more than one time. And Tom worked for a white family known as Widdershins and Widdershins were wealthy and owned, amongst other things, a Mayflower moving franchise. Tom was kind of the handyman for the Widdershin family. So from time to time, he would come by and get his little brother and take him over to the Whiddershins. And they lived, as my father recalled, close to the airport or close enough for him to see airplanes, you know, taking off at low level, sort of to say. But he could see how the other half lived, the Widdershins up close, and wonder, you know, what it would take for him to be able to get his mother (her name was Willie Doll Christian, later, Marbury Johnson, Willie Doll, Christian Marbury Johnson) to get her into a better space and his sisters into a better space. And that gave him a frame of reference he said, you know, and something to aspire towards, and seeing the airplanes also raised a curiosity within him about the possibility of flying. CJJ. 4:42 And can I say something else? I wasn't sure if you were going to follow up with more questions about me. So can I add that? Yeah, of course. So in addition to being born and raised here, and so forth, I did education through Morehouse College and then did my Master's at North Carolina Central [University] in History and then PhD in History at Howard University. Currently, Associate Professor and Chair Department of History at North Carolina Central University. I wasn't sure what you were gonna follow that with and talking about just a little bit of background about myself. Next question. DO 5:20 So, kind of continuing off of that, how was your relationship with Charles Johnson as a father before he was necessarily the Dr. Charles Johnson? And what are some key aspects of him you feel should be highlighted in that regard? CJJ 5:36 Father? Oh, wow. I don't know that I could have been any more fortunate than I was to have the kind of father that did. It's interesting that I have a son who's 18, a studnet of Civil Engineering at North Carolina A&T State University, Xavier Charles Johnson. And it took me having him to have a real appreciation for how much a parent loves a child. But I could feel that from my earliest days, dad [Dr. Charles Johnson] always, and with all people, was an educator. And I got to experience that, you know. Papa had -- I mean, I could go on in much more detail -- went on to Howard University, after going into the military, and so forth. And he, majored in physics at it Howard and did really well and he just had an interesting perspective on the world. He could bring that physics into conversations about things that you would think would be unrelated in ways that were just very natural. So he was someone who could take complex things and just kind of break them down for you as a young person. CJJ 6:59 He was also someone who was very humble. So he was very approachable. I don't think his feet ever fully left their roots in, you know, that little mining camp in Alabama. I think he always understood where he had come from, and you know, what it took to get where he was. So he never never lost sight of that, but, but Dad was great. He had a great sense of humor. He loved to talk; I would say that he was his own favorite subject; he loved talking about himself and his accomplishments. You all are here at Duke. You know, I don't know how much you get a sense that from the faculty that are here, most are pretty confident in quite a bit of themselves. You all don't have to answer that but um... CJJ 7:52 But yeah, Dad was cut from the same cloth, you know, so he really was a hell of a father, Dad. As I got older, and in my youth, and I made mistakes I could. Dad didn't get upset. His first response was always to try to help me figure out whatever it was that I needed to figure out, and we talk about things and so forth. So that created sort of a relationship where I was always confident to talk to him about things that were, I would say, no secrets between us. We were extremely, extremely close. So yeah, great, great example. I mean, being a provider and all those kinds of things, as you know, most take that for granted. Great. Yeah. DO 8:44 Sounds like he was amazing. And do you have any specific stories you feel come to mind when you think about that? Or is it kind of just across the board? You think about him, I guess, being a great father? What do you think? Do you have any, like specific instances or stories in mind with that? CJJ 9:04 Well, I can tell you a dumb thing I did when I was at Morehouse. Honestly, I wrecked my car, like twice in about three weeks or something like that, you know, in the time there. And I can say, as a Dad, I don't know how to have the patience that my father had with me and working through that, you know, he was, like I said, he was just he was a different kind of person. I think he could look into who you were, and kind of get an understanding of your makeup. And then he treated you based upon that. You know, so, he knew his son well, and that I would respond better to just constructive criticism for you know, the things that I did. He was that way, but he was -- also I should add, he was I mean, he was a firm disciplinarian, you know, Dad was a fighter pilot. He had that kind of mentality, and, you know, when you looked him in the eyes, you felt the weight of that. You could tell he had experienced a lot in life. And so you felt that presence, and as a youngster, I had no fears when I was with my Dad, and, you know, but I would not try him either. You know, because, I was part of that, perhaps the last generation of that when parents were really stern... And children were allowed to be children and do the things that children do. CJJ 10:38 But that was a very clear demarcation between being a youngster and being with elders; Dad was definitely that way. You know, as I was coming up, you know. I don't know, Dad took me everywhere he went, you know, as a youngster, I can say. There was a med. rep. program that was designed to help African-American youngsters who were interested in medicine, to have opportunities to get exposure and so forth. Dad played a key role in that and we'd travel, you know, and he go and talk to students try to recruit student --did successfully recruit students here to Duke and that kind of thing... You know, the medical conventions and so forth. Always by his side, we um... CJJ 11:32 A little story, we used to go hunting! One of his closest friends was a gentleman by the name of Junior Joiner, who had a 2000 acre farm that straddled North Hampton County, North Carolina and South Hampton County, Virginia. Junior, actually lived in Branchville, but then moved to South Hampton County. But we would go there and go hunting. Every fall we'd go deer hunting and so forth. And I remember, Dad was a very, how do you say like, a machismo, like a macho kind of, you know, fighter pilot. So I remember him shooting a deer from (laughs) a long distance with a shotgun -- a shot he probably shouldn't have even taken... But he was lucky in that and was successful in, you know, bringing the deer down, and then all that followed that and all of the stories and so forth, they grew considerably considerably in his telling of them. But yeah, I mean, a lifetime of great experiences with Dad doing different things. I don't know that there's any one story that just kind of jumps out. You know, I'll say that I genuinely miss the fact that when I get a little ill or anything like that, I can't give him a quick call because he was always, from my youth, fantastic about that. You know, as this relates to the medical center... CJJ. 13:11 So I mentioned Donald T. more. We grew up in the same subdivision, in Emory Woods, and Dr. Moore was right down the down the road trained at my Meharry. I want to say he was far probably a first African-American OBGYN here at Duke and was an outstanding surgeon. Everyone I've taked to in research I'm doing on my father's life talks about him in that way. But he and my father had short fuses. And I remember I was, and my mother brought me to the ER, here at Duke. Before she left the house, were no cell phones in those days as a youngster, she called Don Moore's wife Barbara (who was Aunt Barbara to me) to let her know. So I wasn't in the ER long before they start poking on me and everything and taking me back to the exam room. The nurse was trying to get an IV in my arm. So Don Moore walked in, and he went to the physician who was there to kind of get a sense of what was going on. I recall, he delivered me. And the nurse was still poking in those days, they had to [indistinct] needles that were like really, really large, and so forth. And blood was going all over, and I was doing my best not to, you know, to come apart. So he came over and spoke directly to the nurse to ask if the nurse needed help, his help, to get it done. He wasn't very polite in his approach because he was becoming frustrated. So as he began to pipe up, the door swung open, and my dad walked in. So now you have like, you know, Mount Vesuvius about to go off in the ER over, you know... But it was it was a good feeling as a youngster to, you know, to have grown up in that way. You know, to have physicians who are like that and cared so much, not just about about me, but about medicine and so forth. Very, very unique upbringing. DO 15:39 100% sounds like it. It's interesting, you talk about him being very caring but also like, I guess, kind of the fighter pilot aspect coming in, and kind of maybe some tough love in that way. So yeah, that's definitely interesting. 100% and kind of going back to his educational journey... So I believe he originally planned to become a nuclear physicist, but he was told that there were not as many opportunities for Black nuclear physicists, and he switched to medicine. What do you think kind of led him into switching into that? CJJ 16:16 Well, I think the sort of story was Dad's principal... well, his mentor at Howard in physics was Frank Coleman. Frank Coleman was one of the founders of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity Incorporated. When Dad got to the point that he was nearing graduation, Dr. Coleman called him in and asked him and he said, you know, Charles, what are your future plans? And he said, Well, you know, I'd rather work for DuPont, or, you know, a company like that, and so forth. Dr. Coleman, he says, Son, do you know anyone that works with Dupont, you know, and that kind of thing? And he said, he did not. He said, well, you know, it's not very likely, at this point that you would be able to get a job at a company like that. But you have the wherewithal, if you would like to continue on and to get a graduate degree and perhaps a doctorate, and teach, you know, in physics, if you would, like (you know outstanding student, you know). And Dad thought seriously about that, you know, but it had occurred at the same time that Uncle Sam was asking him to return to the military (he was in the Reserves he had served in the army before going to Howard to get a GI Bill). He did not want to leave school, he felt like if he had gone at that time, he might not make it back to Howard, to finish his degree. So he had joined Kappa Alpha Psi fraternity Incorporated. And the military officer who was over the Reserve Officer Training Corps, for the Air Force was a member of Kappa, who had actually tried to get him to join the ROTC. And he said he did not want to so now he had to circle back. But he asked him what he could do for him. And he said, well, I'll get you into the ROTC and you won't have to go right now. But when you graduate, you will have that debt paid off. So when he finished, he had that military obligation and because he had taken so many math courses, while also completing his physics degree. The military is very focused on that, as you all might imagine, he he did really well on the aptitude test that you take. And in the Air Force he went into, after basic training, he went into, you know, basic flight, and on up the line to.. I think his his fighter pilot training class was pitch out 55. So he finished it 1955. But that put him on a different course. You know, sort of all together, he did that. He was stationed at Misawa Air Base in northern Japan. And he has great stories about that. You have to read about those in my book on his life, but he says a lot of great stories about that kind of thing. And I think of his accomplishments, that one really stands out in my mind because there were very few African Americans who were fighter pilots flying jets in the 1950s, I don't think he was alone, but it's very, very small number. But in any case, he came out of that after he finished that obligation and the nation was pivoting towards Vietnam and things were getting really hairy there. I came back and, you know, the story continues, he decided to go into medicine. It was a way he said that he felt he could be helpful to his people growing up, there were not Black physicians, you know. I mean, it would be startling to you, even today, the number of young people who've never met an African-American physician, you know, but he wanted to address many of the ills and things that he saw, as a youngster in the community. There were home remedies, and that kind of thing, you know, some of those work, many of them did not. And he took the life sciences, he took a year to get the life sciences, you know, and then applied and ended at Howard University 59, finished in 63. DO 21:16 I see. And so, like, just a timeline. So after he graduated high school, he was a fighter pilot... and-- CJJ 21:24 So after my father graduated, you know, so that was an interesting story there also.. There's different types of poverty, right and then wealth on a continuum, you have intellectual spiritual material poverty. The family wasn't one of material types of resources. It was a great deal of wealth in the other areas. But Dad ended up dropping out of high school, I wanna say in about the 11th grade, and he did that in order to join the military to raise money to help his mother. His mother worked as a domestic and home and wife physician on a mining camp. He ultimately was sent to camp law che, which is in New Orleans, and he worked as a stevedore. Which in those days, that's the person who unloads ships at the dock. In those days, that was back-breaking work. And he had lied about his age so he wrote to his mother, and she contacted the army and they let Dad out. So, that was his first time in the military. He went back and finished high school, Homewood, and then went directly back into the military. Yeah, this time he was sent to, I think, Fort Lewis McChord, Washington State. From there, he went to Roswell, New Mexico where the, you know, the UFOs, allegedly, and all that kind of thing. Yeah, no stories about that. But he could talk ad nauseam about his experiences there. Then he went to Guam and at Guam he was assigned as a clerk for the base commander, which put him in rarefied air. So he got to observe the base commander, his comings and goings how handled his business and so forth and learned quite a bit about how the base was run. So that was a great experience. I said that he was always teaching, he was always a student, as well, and a very good one --and he said, you know, from time to time, the African-American soldiers would ask him for a favor to see if he couldn't get the base commander to help him out with something and that kind of thing. You know, which he would do, would that put him in, you know, kind of special position, or place amongst his peers. He spent some time while he was there, he was able to go to Hong Kong. So that was his first trip like that. That for a boy who had been born on the property of a coal mining company, as you can imagine, really opened his eyes even more. And after that, he took the necessary courses while he was in the military to help him to qualify for college. He applied to two institutions. As a story goes, [he applied] to Harvard and Howard. He had read about both. He indicated you know, that he did not appreciate then about the type of rigor and all of that kind of thing, coming up as he had, in a school where he was. Harvard sent him, actually, a very nice postcard that indicated what he was missing from his application: he had to have a foreign language and maybe an advanced math or something like that... Obviously, they weren't teaching African Americans much anything in the Deep South, let alone the foreign language. So he got what he needed while he was stationed in Guam and Howard University did except him and he got the GI Bill. So many others did, and that was, of course, an elevated bridge to better opportunities. So that's how he ended up at Howard. I like to say, you know, when he got there, the caliber of individuals that were there on the faculty and in his class -- you know, Toni Morrison was a classmate of my dad's. You know, Andy Young was classmate, you know, working as UN former mayor of Atlanta. A young man by the name of Barry Gordy was an early classmate of my father's, the founder of Motown. All of those folks, not to mention my mother, Carolyn Lucille Denton, who ended up being an outstanding politician and judge here in Durham, you know, much later. But in fact, my dissertation advisor, who was a pioneer in the field of African Diaspora Studies, Joseph Harris, and a tremendous scholar, was also in Howard at that time. Very special place... But that was his journey from high school to, you know, Howard University. DO 26:43 I see that makes sense. And continuing, post-Howard going into medical school, or I guess, also going back to him being a fighter pilot, how do you think that kind of played into him later on when he became a physician? How do you think that influenced his decisions and his interactions with patients and colleagues and people he was mentoring? CJJ 27:11 I think it takes a different kind of person to strap themselves into a great big machine and fly into harm's way. And, you know, part of what Dad did, he had to do as an individual; his squadron did not always fly together. And I think about that quite a bit. It's more than a notion. You know, so I think you have to be wired a certain kind of way, you have to have a lot of confidence, you know. But you have to think about it, you know, I don't have a real frame of reference for it. Because I technically grew up, in a manner of speaking, as a privileged kid; both of my parents were professionals. They didn't have that luxury, you know --it was always forward, there was nothing to go back to. So he had to be very sure of himself, as anyone who was a fighter pilot would have to be -- very decisive. And I think that was part of his makeup. But it was also environmental because it came out of his experiences. I think his confidence and desire to be the best, you know, he appreciated being at Duke for that reason, he caught a lot of hell here. But he always had a tremendous amount of respect for his peers, and for what this institution represented as a place of excellence. But yes, that training, the training to become a part of fighter pilot, was very, very difficult. And then being a fighter pilot was very difficult, because there's so much at stake. Not just your life oftentimes, but a lot of other people as well. So he was a very serious-minded person, like I said, with a lot of chutzpah. You know, I think that how that benefited him here was -- there wasn't anything that was going to intimidate him or anyone; he had seen too much and done too much; quite frankly, he had done that even before he had gone into the Air Force. You know, so there were too many life experiences that had shaped him and molded him and created in him a "can do spirit" that, you know, in many ways I feel was indomitable, you know. He just was not going to be dissuaded from something that he was determined to do and that kind of thing. That, you know -- I gave a talk at his celebration of life, it wasn't one of my better talks, but I tried to indicate, you know, the dad lived his life by a set of principles and in a way that was very regimented. I mean, he was like a -- it's, I know cliche to say -- but he really was like a clock. He did things at a certain time and followed the certain routine. And you could, you know, bank on that. And because he stood on certain principles, you could also pretty much figure out where he was going to come down on the side of issues. And he always, as I see, it, tried to discern how to come down on the side of what was right. And he was very courageous in doing that. Oftentimes, we look into a situation, and we see what is right. But it's another thing to step up and put a voice to it, and to take action behind it. And he did that routinely. But not just here at Duke. That was just how he lived his life. He made a lot of enemies that way. A lot of enemies, here and beyond. But it also caused him to have a number of of allies, and with some even became very good friends because they knew what to expect from from Chuck Johnson. DO 31:20 Are there any specific allies you would like to list like, I know he had a very strong relationship with Brenda Armstrong, among some others. CJJ 31:27 Oh, wow. Yeah. Brenda Armstrong was like a daughter to him. Brenda Armstrong was from Wilson, North Carolina and her father was a physician, was an outstanding physician who was a mentor to my dad, W. T. Armstrong. Dad promised that he would look after Brenda, the way that W. T. had looked after him. And what that look like, I'll give you this quick example, is when dad came here, and he was getting established, he joined Old North State Medical Society and W. T. Armstrong was already established and a prominent person in that organization. My father said he could not say why but W.T. and Bob Dawson, Robert Dawson, who was here in Durham and actually saw patients at Duke on the, we call it the public side of the of the clinic years ago, another excellent physician... But they were supportive of dad early on, in Old North State and that allowed him to rise all the way to become president of the of the Old North State. But there were many allies that he had; I would probably start with the one that he talked about to me the most. You had to understand that dad had so many bad experiences with whites growing up in the South. He carried a lot of animus about that, you know, and anger. He was the only one of his siblings who graduated high school, finished high school. Jim Crow, just you know, was so debilitating for African-Americans so difficult. A lot of frustration around that. But, the major contradiction in his life is that many of the people that he ended up being very close to were white. None any more so, to my way of thinking, than Eugene Stead. You know, I was hearing stories about Dr. Stead as a boy. And there were others, you know, Dr., Wingard -- I can remember some of their names and these were towering, towering figures, you know, in medicine. I mean, Dr. Stead, at one point, had trained something like 80% of the top medical faculty at the major research institutions around the country. In cardiac catheterizations, physician's assistants program, and all of these sayings I still have in my head now, like the sick do not inconvenience the well. You know, I still hear that and that was something that Dr. Stead would, you know, share with those people who are under his tutelage. But Dr. Stead would have been first; Dad had a tremendous amount of respect for people who were really well-read and really good at what they did. Here at Duke to him, there weren't -- I can't think of any who weren't -- there were giants here, but none integrated by Dr. Stead, as far as my father was concerned. He was a straight shooter and I'm imagining that's where you get that question about the fighter pilot and Dr. Stead, kind of looking into that. And so yeah, you know, tip of the spear was what fighter pilots are known as. That's what you get. And so what you see first, as an adversary, is typically the Air Force. But yeah, others I mentioned, you mentioned Brenda Armstrong, who was a tremendous physician, someone who worked really hard, you know, to help transform Duke and to make it a place that was much more amenable to African-Americans and people of color just more generally. And, you know, they were still working together up until almost a time of her transition. You know, they were still having conversations and still fighting for what's right. You know, at that late date, you know, Dr. Anya Corrie?, who was a General Thoracic Surgeon here, Dr. Anya Corey? was another strong ally. And another just, you know, a brilliant surgeon. Dr. Corey? as I recall, came in the mid 1970s.. ‘76, ‘77, somewhere in there. I think that's right? I've talked to his wife, and in the last, you know, six, eight months or so -- I might be wrong about that. He had come to Duke from the Mayo Clinic, you know, it's a little than here, we are in the South, it's a little different. So it took him a little bit to adjust and so forth. But they worked together, all of them in concert to uh in a small way, to try to move the needle here. There are probably others I can think of. DO 37:07 I'm sure he touched a lot of people's lives, and there's many people you can list in that way. And kind of going back a little bit. Could you speak more -- so I know, we talked about kind of post-high school, and then going to Howard, could you speak more about his journey, getting admitted into medical school and how that went? CJJ 37:31 Getting into medical school? You know, Dad never made that seem like that was a hugely difficult challenge, because he had been a physics major. You know, who chooses physics as a major, no one chooses physics. You know, that's, again, that confidence thing, and so forth. So the getting in wasn't the real challenge. You know, he did really well in medical school. His mentor there was Dr. Walter Lester Henry who was an endocrinologist and pioneer and like Eugene A. Stead" was just a giant as a scientist, and like Dr. Stead, very, in his own way, a very humble person, very unassuming person. It's very interesting, like the the smartest people I've been around, ask a lot of questions. They asked typically more questions than they do make statements. Someone should do a study of that. But Dr. Henry was really my dad's first, I would say after Dr. Coleman, uh Professor Coleman, like real mentor in science and medicine, and he wanted to do everything Dr. Henry had done. I remember meeting Dr. Henry. He was someone who was very upright, he said, very upright and so forth. And I was in awe of him just as I was when I met Dr. Stead, because I so looked up to my dad and in our community, so many people looked up to Dad, that to see these people he'd looked up to was, you know, very humbling. They turned out to be very beautiful people, you know, both of them. Dr. Henry was, I think it -- was his wife's name Ada? She was like a cheerleader. I mean, I don't want to, you know, but it was so funny because he was like very upright and everything and she was kind of, you know, high spirits and all that kind of stuff. What a lovely couple, but Dr. Henry just had an air about him of someone who was just like really bright. When Duke had this formal welcome for Dad, you know, just after he had gotten there -- he told me, he said, son, you know, I was trying to figure out -- I hadn't done anything, you know, other than be hired and they had this program. And I was trying to think of who I could have, you know, come and talk and he had Dr. Henry come and talk and he gave grand rounds without notes. And, and just phenomenal physicians in those days, and oh, very, very good. Dr. Stead, my quick Dr. Stead story is that when I completed my master's at North Carolina Central, the very day that I successfully defended my thesis, Dad took me out to eat and invited Dr. Stead. I promise you the questions that Dr. Stead asked me were more difficult than the questions that I had during my thesis exam, you know, and he described my dad as a curious seeker of knowledge. But, I think that would be a self-description as well. And it wasn't his intention to -- he was not trying to embarrass me or anything. It was just the nature of the way that he asked questions. He was someone who understood that good research is rooted in really good questions. So I got to experience that. But overall, I really enjoyed being in his presence and being able to spend time with them. DO 41:41 100% and going off of Dr. Eugene stead, could you describe specifically how he went about appointing Charles Johnson and how that kind of went about with choosing him for that role, and I guess, the before and after, as well? CJJ 42:01 Well, you know, his dad tells a story, you know, Dad was running a hospital in medicine over at Lincoln -- he and Charlie curry were. Charlie Curry was another, I mean, just giant. As a cardiologist, he and Don Moore and Dad, were in the same peer group, all really, really good... As it turns out, John Beauregard Johnson, who was Chief of Cardiology at Howard University, and a giant himself, and actually married to a woman from Durham, passed away suddenly. Howard was in need of a replacement. So, since Charles Curry had been a star student -- my father called him a walking encyclopedia of medicine -- and I really mean he's a very good, very humble person. When I asked Uncle Charles, when he retired, you know, ""What will be your legacy?" He'd trained at, he'd stayed at Howard for 30 years or so.. He thought about it for a second, he said "child, I guess it's that I trained the most Black cardiologists than anyone in the world." Well, that's a pretty nice legacy I will say. But, very humble. Very humble in that. But Dad and Charlie Curry were running a hospital in medicine at Lincoln. They were I remember, working 100 hour weeks. And Dr. Charlie Watts, who had recruited Dad to Durham and Charles DeWitt Watts was the first African-American board-certified surgeon in the state of North Carolina -- proud Morehouse man and Howard medical school graduate -- and another giant, brilliant you know, physician was running a hospital and Dad, talked to Dr. Watts. And he said, well, Chuck "you're making a lot of money," [Dr. Watts] -- and "I don't have any damn time to spend it, though, because I'm working all the time. Right, you know, I done worked myself to death." [Dr. Johnson] So after Charlie Curry left, that left Dad, and he had made up his mind and he was gonna leave Lincoln and leave Durham. And when I asked him, I said "Dad, where are you going?" He said, "I was gonna go back and work with Dr. Henry at Howard University." He came very close to going. I think it was Dr. Watts. I have not found the correspondence. I've going through Dr. Watts papers, maybe it was a phone call. But I think he let Dr. Stead know that one of his star pupils was about to leave. Dr. Stead called him in, they had a meeting and he asked Dad if he would join the medical faculty here at Duke. Dad, honestly, was not expecting that. And I really mean that. You know, and if you've ever seen a video interview about that, you know, he said, he didn't think that Duke was interested in having Blacks at the hospital. You know, and it was a kind of statement that would get him in trouble, but it was coming from a very honest place. And now he had to consider what that would mean for his patients and so forth. You know, I've seen -- and you can go look up yourself to newspaper articles, people would turn away from coming here, and that kind of thing... So, and just the treatment of individuals, and African Americans at Duke, very difficult. So there was a great deal of hostility in the Black community, here in Durham about, you know, Duke University, not just the hospital, it was called a plantation in Black Durham for a very long time, you know. So Dad, thinking about his patients first had to make that decision based upon what they would do. And in those days, physicians have very good relationships with their patients, though. It's much closer than today, you know. The way you all are trained is not your fault. It's just different, the time that you have, and so forth it's just different... But very fond of dad. So they came [Dr. Johnson's patients], and, you know, he came. That's pretty much as he says, in that film, that's it. And Dr. Stead wasn't Chief of the hospital. I have in my head Dr. Wingard was -- I have to go back and check my notes, double check that... But he signed off on it because, Dr. Stead said that, he would be ideal based upon all the things that he had been through. They had prepared him, you know, and they did! Just like a good fighter pilot, he had to pick and choose his battles, you know, he did that very much so here at Duke. He could never come out of character, which he knew and understood, he could not respond to every insult, and he recognized he was not going to win every every battle; that was a great award to be won overall. DO 47:41 And upon arriving at Duke, are there any specific initiatives or policy changes that he instituted to help minority students that come to mind? CJJ 47:52 No, what I would say is, I remember he was still, you know, very junior, when he arrived -- he was a junior faculty member here, and so forth. So they were people were much more, you know, established than he was. But he understood why he was brought here very clearly. And Dr. Stead was very clear about that. You know, he began to change things, I would say, in an informal way, before he did in a formal way, by just his presence, began to change things because people were used to seeing a Black physician hospital. So he made a point of it to walk around. I mean, the hospital has grown tremendously as you can imagine than that time now. I mean, it's ginormous now. But in those days, you could walk through, I don't know if it's still called Duke South, but you could walk through the old hospital. And he would do that daily, in part, so that everyone could get a chance to see him so he could get a sense of, you know, what was going on where and get to meet people. Dad was a people person. So the sort of Allied Health staff at the hospital, especially the African-Americans, really embraced that, and took that, a great deal as a source of pride seeing one of their own in the role that he was in and carrying himself in the way that he always did, you know, which was with his head up and his chin up. Eyes forward, you know, and not looking at the floor. And at the same time, still rooted in that, you know, the fertile soul of that mining camp in in Alabama. So he talked to everybody and respected their humanity and dignity. So they became very fond of them, and they would let him know, you know, what they were hearing and that kind of thing. You know, and to estimate how valuable that kind of information could be. But that was how he began to slowly change things. CJJ 50:04 You know, when he retired, I heard for the first time he told a story at Duke, as they were phasing out all of the old battleships like that. They even phased out Dr. Stead as my understanding is they were bringing in a new managed care approach to medicine. They had a retirement celebration for Dad and Dad talked about coming here initially. You know, many of the women who were responsible for -- I think they assisted the nurses, I don't know that they were necessarily the nurses themselves -- refused to talk to him. And Dr. Stead would make a point of it every week of seeing Dad informally. He wouldn't call him in his office, he'd just find him somewhere in the hall and ask him, you know, how he was doing. (Charlie, you know, what's going on or whatever). And Dad didn't always have something to say, so that when he did, it had some meaning behind it, because he didn't always have something to say. But he indicated that you know, the health professionals refusing to talk to him. And he said, there was not any kind of statement made by the institution or anything like that. But within a year or so he looked up, and there were all these African-Americans who are now working in this different capacities, who are willing to talk to him and so forth. So the institution just quietly, I imagine, shifted those people perhaps to a role where they didn't have to... where they couldn't carry on the way that they were carrying on. But in any case, another thing that he did early on was to try to recruit medical students to Duke. You know Barton Haynes, who was Chief of Medicine here, was someone who was a very close friend of my father's. Not just an ally. He was someone that my father had a tremendous amount of respect for, and cared very deeply about. But he did the same thing sort of, during his his time here, you know, and in interviewing him, he talked about some of the things that he, you know, that he attempted to do to help that. The work that he was doing and trying to recruit African-American medical students to Duke. But out of the gate, Duke, when Dad came on board, had recruited a class of students early on --and I cannot remember exactly when -- but they went and got African-American students who had come out of smaller institutions, which I will not name so as to not seem like I'm trying to put them down... But, their preparation in those institutions was not what would be necessary to fit seamlessly into a medical program here at Duke. So, my father, in an open meeting, led the committee that was responsible for admitting the students know that what they had done was intentional. In that sense, they had gone and selected students who they knew would not be prepared for the rigors of what they were about to be up -- and it wasn't about their intellect or their anything it was about their preparation. Since they had not been prepared adequately, that they would see those students out and that going forward, they would go to institutions where the students had come out of programs that had better prepared them to give them a fighting chance in the medical school here. And he always talked about that, about how difficult it was, you know, in those times. I know, Mary Klotman talked about how, you know, it was just, it was very cold. People were very blunt, and so forth, and very demanding. I mean, very demanding. So, you know, it's a real challenge for those early African-Americans; Eugene Wright can probably tell that story a lot better than I can but that was certainly a very difficult transition for many of those. But Dad worked really hard over a very long period of time to do that. To get the institution in sync with identifying young people who would be able to be successful. I know Gene Wright, Estrada Bernard --um I think he's out in Alaska somewhere -- good luck trying to catch him. But you ought to be able to catch Dr. Wright... Bertram Walls. Those were some of the early students of his. Really outstanding physicians, really outstanding people also. DO 55:34 Yeah, I was able to speak to Dr. Eugene Wright, thankfully, and he gave a lot of good stories with that. Especially with -- he was the one that kind of listed the tough love mindset with him being a fighter pilot, and him being a mentor to a lot of the students. CJJ 55:49 You know, how they described it to me was, Dad would take the students under his wing in a way that prevented other physicians, from beating them up too much. And you need that. But, that also meant that now you were at the mouth of the dragon, because he was going to really challenge you, and make sure that you would really be prepared to the level that Duke University would want you to be prepared so.. DO 56:24 100% And I know you were also describing more early on, like more informal, I guess, actions he took? How would you describe his interactions with the Duke, the Black Duke med. students, that he kind of helped integrate into Duke med early on. How would you say he kind of helped them I guess, more informally? CJJ 56:45 Well, again, I think Dr. Wright, you know, knows, like that, like Dr. Walls. They can talk about that. You know, my sense is they had they had own parents, but Dad was like a father figure to them. You know, they really looked up, they looked up to him, you had to remember, you know, when you starting out, there weren't too many Blacks at Duke period, as professionals, let alone you know, in the hospital. So there was a certain aura about him. And you'd have to be around him. The way that he carried himself all of the time kind of demanded a certain level of respect, you know? Yeah, he just, he just kind of had that way about him. And those experiences, it was not, I'm not gonna say like a natural born thing. He was just a great student, I mentioned the base commander, how he got to observe and how he interacted with people, as a leader of soldiers, and so forth. So I think all of those experiences helped him with them. But a lot of it was, he could relate and he was very relatable. Many of the challenges that they were facing, he faced, you know, so he understood that really well. He had a no excuse policy; you could not make excuses. He just, he could not in his lifetime, make excuses. They woule always have to be a solution. So you had to drive towards the solution, and away from excuses. So I'm sure that -- I got that, right? So I'm sure that his students get that. If you weren't successful, then you had to explain why you were not successful. You couldn't say I'm having bad luck or something like that. He was a scientist you know; there's a very clear reason that you weren't successful. And the only way that you're going to be able to get beyond that, is to address it. But those lessons I would imagine he imparted on, you know, on those students. But he was a very strong mentor. He had no problems confronting people, it didn't matter who it was. And Dad was a very honest, candid and courageous person, you know, his background, screams that. And he was. So, his students, just like I didn't fear anything growing up with having him as a father, you know, I have to imagine that they felt very comfortable having him as a professor and mentor. DO 59:37 100% and I know, you slightly touched on this previously, but are there any specific instances where Dr. Johnson faced, like resistance or backlash from colleagues or the community due to his activism? And how did he address overcome these challenges? CJJ 59:58 Yes, he did. You know, oh, there are a number of things, you know, that happened. One of the first was there were white patients who didn't want to be seen by a Black physician when he first started in. And you'd have to understand, my father had a tremendous amount of pride, tremendous amount of pride. So he was fine with that. There were many others who were enlightened enough to figure out that if white folks had hired him to be a physician, he must be pretty damn good. So they had no issue having him as a physician, and some would travel great distances to have him as a physician. But there was that overcoming, you know, overcoming that. There were a lot of assumptions about his preparation. He used to joke about a colleague who was new, who, in making small talk asked him where he went to school, and he said, "Howard," and he said [colleague], "Oh, Harvard?" And Dad said, no, Howard University in Washington, DC. But he, you know, medical students would try him from time to time, you know, to see if he really knew his stuff, and he did. And I take it as a great source of pride you know, I knew -- I'm not a physician, but Dad was, some would call him very well read. You know, he had a nephew, Dwight Johnson, who said, "your father would read these books, they were like, three inches thick, and there were no photos in 'em" you know, you know.. But you know, his peers indicated that he was an outstanding, you know, physician. I guess, at the end of the day, that's what we all want is to be respected, you know, by peers for what we do and contribute, you know, in our profession. But from time to time, he had to deal with those kinds of things. There were no, like crisis moments that I recall. Dad was very cool under fire. I never -- and I mean this -- saw my father flustered, or like the situation was too big for him. I really, really mean that. And he was able to be in those situations and be humble at the same time. You know, and I just think that was, again, from all that he had experienced and accomplished long before he, you know, had come to Duke. You know` remember, often Charles Lorenzo Curry, Dr. Curry (Dad called [him] Charlie curry), told me, you know, Duke, the National Institutes of Health has sent a panel of individuals to review the hospital. And they had called the physicians together in this, just open meeting. And towards the end -- remember, my father was very junior, he and Charlie Curry very junior, at the time. They asked, they open the floor and said, "Is there anyone who has any kind of issues?: And Dad raised his hand, he said, well, I can't see patients on the private diagnostic side of the hospital. And Uncle Charles said, man, I thought we were gonna be fired the same day, I couldn't believe that your father had the gumption in front of all of these giants to stand up and say that. So when the guy asked him again, he said he repeated the same statement to make sure he was very clear. And so Duke, again, without making some sort of formal declaration, slowly moves towards a policy that` we would call more enlightened in that regard as well. DO 1:04:13 Wow, that's very interesting to hear, and kind of continuing off of him being within Duke Health. What would you envision his average day looked like? And how did he kind of create change and difference daily? Or even what, what kind of interactions he went through on a day by day basis? CJJ 1:04:33 You know, the first thing I would say is, you know, you have to understand that when Dad entered the hospital, especially early on, all eyes were on him. So he always had to be at the top of his game. You know, and that was not fair. It wasn't. But Dr. Stead felt that he would be the person to be in that role. And he was. I want to start by saying that he was always very conscious that he was representing much more than himself. You know, he could not be out advocating for having more African-American professionals and then not being professional, and literally outstanding himself. Right, he would have gotten no traction with that. You know, I alluded to that earlier, when I said he always had to be in character. He could not allow himself to come out of character for anyone to do anything that pushed his buttons to get him to come undone. Right. So everything had to be done as a professional at the highest possible level, which he, which he did. So, you think of all of all the micro aggressions, right, the passive aggressive behavior, all of the negative assumptions that he had to live with on a daily basis for a very long time in this hospital. You know, a lesser person probably would have just said, you know, to heck with this, you know, and go somewhere else to practice medicine. But he endured, right. I think he knew that there were higher ups who were committed to see the change, and there were or the hospital would not have changed. You know, it was not just Dad. There were others that helped. That reminds me of Mary Biddle Duke, Trent Siemens. She was what you might call a grey eminence. But she was someone who was like the mirror net? behind the scenes. In those days, it was different also. I don't know what kind of presence the Duke Family has here now but you felt the weight of her presence when she wanted you to feel it, in a way that I don't know is still here now. But she was another really strong ally for, you know, for Dad. But I think I mentioned Barton Haynes, Ralph Sniderman. Dr. Sneiderman was another... But, yeah, in terms of the allies, I kind of went I kind of went back to that. Yeah, I've kind of lost my train... What was -- what was? Did I answer that question sufficiently? DO 1:07:52 Mainly, just about like what his average day would look like.. CJJ 1:07:56 So we talked about being regimented. Dad worked all the time you know, except Wednesdays. He took Wednesday afternoon to play golf. That was his time. All right. And he did not move off of that. He was an avid golfer, had all sorts of delusions about playing in the PGA [Professional Golfers' Association] and all that kind of thing. But that was his time. And he took that. But all the other time he worke and he loved to work. It was not really work for him. He was a people person; he loved being able to sit down and to talk to the little ladies that came in to see him. That was one of the reasons he couldn't fit with managed care as it was in a recognized scenes of change?. But he says, you know, son, they will come and they'd bring me a pie. Then they'd give me a rundown on their grandkids and all of that. And he said somewhere in there, I'd find out, you know why they had come to see me (laughs), you know, but I could not switch to a thing where I was where I was pushing them to get out. But it started obviously before day, and then it ended after dark most days. You know, he made rounds to you know, to see the different patients, took time to meet with the students that he needed to meet with and to mentor to make sure that they were okay and that kind of thing. And then to have the conversations he needed to have with people who were asking very pointed questions about things that were going on in the hospital, you know. So that will kind of characterize it to me. You know, my parents divorced in '73 I want to say. And up until that time, I remember Dad coming home, you know at night he would take time to stop -- I loved plain m&ms -- he would stop at the store. And he'd have you know, plain m&ms for me. I don't wanna say nightly, but almost every night, and I was always, always happy to see Dad. You know, he, he gave to my sister Carla and I, what he could not have had as a boy. In a way of kind of material things and so forth. And even because his father died when he was a boy, and even in that way -- he was really an incredible father for a first-timer, you know, someone who did not have the experience of growing up with the father who was there throughout their childhood. His father worked in that mind, you know, from before day until after dark, and he did not see much of him. He just said he was a very, remembers him as a very large quiet man. And this felt like he must have loved him, because he just kept going back into that mine. But so that was, you know, his routine was pretty well set. He read the newspaper every day, he was very informed about what was going on in the world and could talk, you know, as an informed person would about those kinds of things. So he used to read quite literally everything he could get his hands on. So Dad was a very well-read person; I'm not just saying that he really did that. DO 1:11:35 And kind of kind of going back to what you said about his daily routine. I think it's very interesting, the point of him, I guess, kind of being a minority within the majority having to be very level-headed. Whether that was like an intrinsic factor or something that like he felt he needed to be, I believe it was probably more so for him intrinsic... But, I think that's very interesting to hear. And do you feel like yourself -- have you ever been in spaces where you feel maybe as being one of the few Black individuals, you kind of had to maintain a level head? And kind of a very, I don't know, kind of very good appearance if that makes sense? CJJ 1:12:19 Yeah, well, for me, not as much. You know Morehouse, you know, African-American HBCU, and all male, you know, and pretty much African-American. And then North Carolina Central and Howard University's education wise, in other spaces. I'm in a generation where I didn't have to think of it the same way that my father did, you know, not so much was at stake. I was in the different spaces where, you know, I mean, you can find yourself in that very quickly. You know, today I did an internship with the State Department, for example. There were African Americans who were officers and so forth and did that overseas internship, you know. But that was a great experience -- as it turned out the ambassador I worked for was great: Catherine Kahneman was dream ambassador to work for. Our experiences were so different. My father's experience was different from mine. You know I used to feel some kind of way about that growing up in his shadow because Dad meant so much to the Black community here. And the Black community here was really, really outstanding. And I mean that. All across Durham, Black Durham, was amazing. For example, in the subdivision, I mentioned Donald Moore down the street, well, right across the street was Willie Levitt who was, as I recall, a mechanical engineer. Next door to him was Bill Bell, who was an electrical engineer and had flown helicopters in Vietnamm and the longest serving mayor in Durham's history, a transformation, that's right across the street. Nextdoor was Charlie Curry, on the other side was DeWittig? who I believe was an industrial engineer. So I mean, that was just what four or five houses in that community, you go down the street and around the bend and you had Missouri Maurice, who was the first African-American woman all-American in basketball and then two College Hall of Fame's as a basketball player. But her husband flew B52s. And across the street from them was Wes Covington, who helped the Milwaukee Braves win the World Series in 1957 as a Hillside High School graduate from Durham. Nextdoor to him was North Carolina Central's second all-time winningest football coach George Quad, who was a good friend of my father's. But I could go -- Bert Collins who was a CEO of North Carolina making Mickey McShaw?, longest serving state legislator. All of those are just on almost one street in that, you know, in that community, And you could go all around that subdivision and then to multiple others around Durham. And a neat aspect of that, I will say, and I really mean this, is because of that, most of people here were pretty humble. Because you will always surrounded by people who were so outstanding, you know. So I like to say, Durham had a lot of African Americans who were elite, but they were not elitist. DO 1:15:49 Okay, so kind of going less from of his role working as a faculty member but... He was known to care very deeply for his patients and defend them in cases if needed. Could you describe this, or any specific stories that come to mind? CJJ 1:16:07 About his patients? Wow, Dad did share quite a bit about patients. You know, not necessarily in so much as having to advocate for 'em. I think there was, for the most part within the hospital, people worked as a team and trying to get people better. You know, but he did have interesting cases, he had a case where a daughter brought a mother who I think would either 102? 104? And she wanted Dad to see her to find out, you know, something that I can't recall. And he said, quite candidly that she should be telling him, you know, what her secret was to, you know, to longevity, or what have you. What I'll say about Pop is that, you know, what people came to appreciate about him is that he was very, very good at diagnosing people. And if you want a story, I'll tell you my own. So I guess.. hmm 2024. It was about a decade ago. Two decades ago now. Or was it three decades ago. Almost three decades ago, now! I became ill I was an athlete and I got to a place where it's very difficult for me to breathe and so forth. I was beginning to lose weight. I was having night sweats. You know, so talking to my father. I went to see Dad, as things became more difficult for me. And he said, Son -- I forgot who the pulmonologist was now, but he was the Chief of the Pulmonary Division; he sent me to see him. He said they're going to tell you that you have tuberculosis. And then he gave me the social reasons why that would be; the assumptions about African-Americans and so forth. He said, but you have sarcoidosis. He said, so what they're going to do is they're going to take a scan of your chest and do a biopsy and so forth. And that's exactly what they did, literally, in that order from the, we think you have tuberculosis to the chest scan to find the granulomas to, you know, the biopsy of them to determine that I had sarcoidosis. CJJ 1:18:47 So people came to really trust what he had to say about medicine. You know, I don't want to say too much about that because it gets into other people's sort of medical history. But he was very good at diagnosing, you know, things that were difficult for people to figure out what they were. I'll say about my godmother, who was -- it gives me a chance to talk about her, talking about outstanding individuals, good gracious. Uh, her name was Josephine Ophelia Dobbs Klymit, and I'll be quick as I can with this. But, the Early College at North Carolina Central University is named after her and she was a politician here in Durham (kind of cutting her story short). She's deserving of this kind of attention herself. But she ended up coming down with Sjögren's. Initially there was a lot of difficulty in trying to figure out what she had, you know, Dad diagnosed her and took care of her for quite some time. But she was a really a phenomenal woman. And in her husband, William Alexander Clement, who was an executive at North Carolina mutual, likewise. And she came from a long line of -- she was the Aunt to Maynard Jackson's sister, who lived in Durham, uh was his mom. I'll get off into my Durham thing. So you better ask me a different question about something else. DO 1:20:43 (Laughs) Just, I guess, kind of slightly summarizing his work with Duke Health specifically. Is there any specific actions he took that you would say were like a defining moment of his time with Duke? CJJ 1:20:57 A defining moment? Wow. A defining moment, you know, when Dad was tenured and promoted, it came without much fanfare, to be honest with you. I would say probably when he became the president of the National Medical Association, you know, Dad -- and I indicated earlier, I traveled with Dad as a youngster to the medical convention. He took that so serious. From a very early stage, he was very serious about the professional association, and its role. And he was committed to that. And he worked really hard to become the president. And it was not a straight route to get there. You know, he met resistance along the way. And it's interesting how the good Lord had that work out because had he been elected at the time that he thought he should have been, I think his inauguration and all the celebration would have taken place in Indianapolis (nothing against Indianapolis if you from there). But the next year where he was, was in Las Vegas right. So that was great, as far as I was concerned (laughs). But I think it was that. That was a culminating thing in many ways for him. He was the consummate leader in that role. I remember for like, his inaugural address being a little nervous. And he was just so natural, and so calm, and so, you know, comfortable in what he wanted to say and what his platform would be, and all that kind of thing. And yeah, so I think that probably was it, because that brought a lot of attention to Duke and it gave them a reason to celebrate him, and so forth. And Ruff Snyderman made him like a special assistant, you know, to the Chancellor, or something. Which was a very nice professional gesture; it was a real gesture. You know, so yeah, I think that would, to me, probably be... As I think about that, that and then, you know, the retirement also people began to pay a lot of attention. John Hope Franklin came, you know, Ciragan Lincoln came, people who are good buddies, you know, but who were also giants in own areas came, so, yeah. DO 1:23:49 And so, the National Medical Association was, like a counterpart to the American Medical Association? CJJ 1:23:58 Right. So if you went back to segregation, i think the NMA was founded in 1896, if I'm not mistaken. So it's the oldest African-American professional association in the country. As I say, you all considered like our brightest individuals. It was filled with, you know, our brightest individuas, going way back. And it, as you recognize, you know, afforded physicians an opportunity to share information in a way that they would not have, you know, as a consequence of Jim Crow. You know, African-Americans could not join the AMA [American Medical Association]. So they had the National Medical Association. During my father's period, amongst his peers, I can't say what it is today, because I've long since stopped going to NMA conventions, but they took that very seriously. It was very serious work that took place there. And it was a great deal of pride in, you know, in NMA. People have very strong feelings about it. You know, I just remember as a child, I guess I grew accustomed to seeing, you know, so many Black physicians doing great things all over the country, other countries. In the Caribbean and so forth. Dad, when he was President pushed them to have their -- because Dad was president, I think '89, '90 -- pushed him to have their '96 on the continent of Africa. And he wasn't successful but he did make the argument for it you know. He also wanted to see medicine socialized, you know. He felt strongly that we were paying too much to take care of people. Right so, he wanted to see, you know, to advocate for that. And that comes out of his background of seeing patients, oftentimes, especially in his Lincoln days, some of his early Duke days, you know, there were many people who paid with apple pies, sweet potato pies, and that kind of thing. Right and that was fine. And he was not the only physician doing that. I want to be clear, I'm not trying to characterize him as different, you know. They did what was necessary, you know, what was that quote I gave you of Dr. Stead, you know, "The sick do not inconvenience the well." DO 1:26:39 100%. And specifically with his work in. NMA, could you list any specific changes that he made after he was appointed as president? CJJ 1:26:56 You know, I have not, I've not gotten to that place, even in my own writing. So I haven't reviewed, you know, like policies and that kind of thing that he put in place. But what I can say is that I know he was an advocate for the care of the elderly. And I know he was called before Congress to (I think it was Congress?) to speak about that. A special committee to talk about like the cost of care which kind of, which dovetails into what I was literally just talking about. He had a very real concern about the affordability of quality health care. Of course that redounded more heavily on African-American and other people of color. He preferred not to be considered a minority, because he said, people of color are the predominant people in the world. So he said it's come to be a loaded expression. And he wasn't a big fan of that. DO 1:28:06 I see, so I guess, continuing off of the NMA. Could you describe his work as a delegate to the 44th World Health Assembly? CJJ 1:28:18 No, I actually, you know, that's another one of those where I don't want to try to get into the minutiae of what all was going on with that. I do remember him going. I do remember Lou Sullivan playing a big role in that. I think he might have been Secretary of Health at that time or... or... when was that? No. It was in a different capacity. But I remember him being part of that delegation and then going, but I don't recall like the details of that visit. DO 1:28:56 And so I guess within Duke Health in other areas, how would you say his experiences shaped his own perspectives on the intersectionality of race and health? And then how would you say his activism within the Duke community contributes to a sort of like shift in attitudes and practices? Or kind of inspired, perhaps others to take similar positions as him? CJJ 1:29:20 Say that again? That's quite a long question. DO. 1:29:25 Just overall, how would you say his experiences kind of shaped his own views on like intersections in race and health and maybe inspired others to do similar things as him? CJJ 1:29:37 Well, I think Dad was an exemplar for young people, student African-American physicians in particular. We've talked about, you know, a handful of them and Dr. Wright and, you know, Estrada Bernard and Dr. Walls, Bertram Walls. But I have to imagine that watching him go about his business must have impacted them. The issues that he was, that they that they were fighting, and certainly he was fighting, we're not a secret, they were widely known and understood, you know. The assumption of a person's inferiority based upon how they look and their capacity to do, what was required to be done, and so forth, you know.. Dad would have said himself, though, you're not fighting against what people look like, you know, it's their thoughts and beliefs and actions that militate against human decency that are, you know, that was the target. But I would imagine that many people will probably (especially those who got to see him more routinely) had to be inspired by that. I think that would be probably a better question for those people who actually took up the mantle to do that work. But I want to be clear, though, because I don't want to take agency from like Brenda Armstrong, she greatly admired Dad and looked up to Dad. But Dad had a tremendous amount of respect for Dr. Armstrong. Who in her own right, she didn't need dad to become a firebrand; you know, she was a firebrand before she, you know, came to Duke hub. When she was a student at Duke, you may recall, she took over to the president's office at Duke, you know trying to get more African-American and people of color teaching at the institution in Black Studies at the institution and so forth. It's, it's interesting how there are aspects of the past that we seem to keep revisiting. But yeah, so you know, just so many of those people, I think were already kind of willing to take on, you know, the challenges in their own way. And I mentioned, Jean Spaulding, you know, who is such a towering figure here now. Who I cannot imagine has not been fighting many battles herself for a very long time. You know, people just go about their business in a way that I think, to those of us who are on the outside, we don't get to see all of the details and everything. And no, but I'm sure she has her fair of lumps. And I'm sure she's given a few over the years too in trying to make sure that the institution is true to a sacred trust. DO 1:32:46 100%. And, I guess, kind of closing on Duke, I guess it's kind of slightly repeating maybe what we had already discussed. But, like, what would you say, his legacy that he left at Duke was? If you could kind of describe it in a few words. Or just how you feel it is in your words? CJJ 1:33:09 There are now, people of color all over Duke Hospital and no one thinks anything of it. That would be his legacy... He said to me that when the Black medical students began to come to do, and no longer sought him out, he understood that the institution had changed. For a very long time, they always would look around the faculty and probably take a wild guess that the one African-American physician or one of a couple, probably had some say in their being there. Right, so they will go and introduce themselves. But there came a time where that changed. And that was not probably not as early as you would think. I'm sure that was well into the 80s. And, you know, a few more of them, and fewer will come by to, you know, to get advice or counsel, and that kind of thing. But to me, his legacy is that today, people just assume that Duke Hospital, that Duke Health is just an enlightened place. And I can tell you that it certainly was not. And there were individuals, not just my Dad, I've named some of them, you know, who helped to bring the institution to wisdom over its protest, sometimes kicking and screaming, DO 1:34:45 (Chuckles) Kicking and screaming. Would you like to note any of his other involvement maybe outside of Duke or other places that is not necessarily mentioned a lot? CJJ 1:34:57 My father? Dad was um.. whatever he became a member of he was really committed to. He was, you know, his Greek letter fraternity, Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity Incorporated, he loved, you know, through and through. He was a member of Boule, he was a very active with that, really, really enjoyed that, and so forth. But his real passion was his family. His wife, Carol, you know, became to me the love of his life. They fashioned a remarkable marriage and relationship. One that should be, to my way of thinking, emulated. They looked out for one another and really didn't care about what the outside world felt about things. In a way, that to me is just so uncommon today. But he really loved Carol, and vice versa. And they really took care of one another. You know, Carol, especially as he got older, Dad was fiercely independent. But, you know, she really looked after Chuck, and, and continues to do so even now. And it has not been without challenges even since he's passed. But she, um their relationship, I think really stands out, you know, in my mind. And, you know, I'm not going to say too much more about that. But because my father was such a well-known individual in the community. It just stands out that they was such a close couple, and supported each other, you know, so much. They traveled together, almost to an extent where Dad wouldn't go if Carol wasn't able to go, kind of thing, you know, so, yeah. But his family and then I mentioned, my sister. And my sister, I mentioned had a son. You know, who's in, right now, an honors program at A & T [North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University], an engineer. I have a niece, (my sister has a daughter) Christina, who is an athletic trainer at the University of Maryland now. And, you know, those became sort of, you know, focal points in his life, as all grandchildren are. But that was kind of his reason for being in many, many ways. And he was a great, just like, he was a great dad, he was a great, great grandfather also. Loved him tremendously, very proud of him. DO 1:38:01 Wow, that's amazing. And kind of towards the end of his career, or maybe even like, after he retired, are there any specific influential things, or even just kind of ways he spent his time that you'd like to note? CJJ 1:38:19 Dad... um most of his work was done in line with his professional career through either the Old North State, the NMA, or the Durham Academy of Medicine, Dentistry and Pharmacy. And, you know, he, beyond that, there was just not a lot of time to do anything else, you know. In retirement, he retired for a while and he couldn't stay retired. You know, as I said, the delusion of joining the PGA kind of went away. He was gonna play golf every day. As much as he enjoyed it, he enjoyed living the life of the mine more so and feeling like he was helping people. So he went back to work for a number of years and medicine, and he did that until he got to a place where he didn't feel like he was sort of at the top of his of his game in a manner of speaking. So he stepped away from it. He had that kind of discernment and humility about himself. You know, Dad was a very decisive person. I don't know that he had many regrets. He didn't seem to live his life like that to me. And, he's one of those people that was very intentional about pretty much everything that he did. So at the end, he was intentional about not doing anything. And, you know, he spent his quiet time reading, enjoying family, and obviously spending time with Carol. Having fun with you know, having fun with her family. DO 1:40:20 I see and also I think you had mentioned.... I've lost my train of thought... [pause] So specifically, what age was it that he retired like officially? Do you know when exactly that was? CJJ 1:40:55 I think Dad came out in '90 or about '97 or so, somewhere in there I want to say, Yeah, he'd been born in '27. I'm just a historian, but I think that's about 70... Is that, did I get that right? DO 1:41:17 Yeahh, and I guess kind of in closing-- CJJ 1:41:19 He was a young 70, though I will say. Dad did, yeah he did push ups every day, into his 70s. DO 1:41:29 Wow. That's very impressive. I hope I'm like that when I'm 70. And like thinking about him today, is there one specific aspect of him that's often overlooked, maybe that you'd like to know? Or maybe just describe who he was to you in a few words, or how you would describe him personally. CJJ 1:41:49 So I just I said you can watch how I talked about him, he's a rock. And our family, he was a foundation upon which most of us pushed off of. You could always go to Dad and get solid -- and not just us, people in the community, close friends and so forth. We'd go to Dad, because he was a solid person, you were gonna get solid advice. And I missed that. I'm prepared for it, because he prepared me for. But I sure wish I had it. And that, you know, you go back to the legacy question again, obviously, he trained many outstanding African-American physicians. And, you know, he served as a mentor, and as an example to many others, some not even in medicine. And I think all of that is part of his legacy, you know, but he fought the good fight here and he did right by this institution. And, you know, so he's able to walk away from it with his head, you know, held very high. The institution, again, did not transform itself. There were individuals, not just Dad, many others I mentioned, you know, Jean Spaulding inside is still, I believe, you know, engaged in that work. There were many individuals, you know, who did, but he certainly played a big part of that from a very early period. And he was very intentional about it. It's just, it's hard to quantify that you know I've seen some statistics about like, where the institution was when he started versus where we are today. And you get a sense of a very significant impact in helping to make the institution a more welcoming place to people of color. DO 1:44:13 100 % percent. And just a final question, kind of considering the purpose of this project -- Would you consider him an activist or advocate or agent of change? And why or why not? CJJ 1:44:28 Would I consider him an activist and advocate or an agent of change? I think he was probably, at different times, all of those things. You know, what makes history to me, so rich is the complexity of the human personality. Right? We're not monolithic. You know, cause and effect relationships are often driven by multiple factors. Internal and external. They make things much more complicated. So I'll say at different times in his life, he was someone who was an advocate, and activist, you know, in that he was out, you know, rallying the troops to make a strong push to get more physicians or African-American physicians hired and so forth. Other times, he was an advocate for students who needed that, you know, advocation perhaps to get someone off of them, or to get someone to support them. And then he was also a change agent, right. And just the institution itself is, to me, the best example of that. The work that he did transformed the lives of the people that he was privileged and honored to serve. But his work here in the hospital, as someone who was attempting to bring about change in the right direction, stands out in my mind, just from what we see here at Duke on a daily basis. Because there's so many people now -- and I think the Chancellor of Health Affairs, is an African American, perhaps even a distant relative mistake?. DO 1:46:35 Is there anything else you would like to add before we finish up? CJJ 1:46:40 Well, my great hope is that Duke will do something with this meaningful to celebrate, in the appropriate way, not just my father, but all of those individuals who have played a part in helping to make Duke what it has become today. And they should not have to go begging to get the institution to do that. It should be done in a way that it brings honor, not just to the individuals, but those individuals represented larger communities of people. All right, who helped them and who helped this institution. So it would be a way of honoring I think the institution itself in doing that. But that's my great hope is that their legacy, you know, all of them -- Dad, Don Moore, Charles Curry... I could have said Sadye Beatryce Curry, who was the first African-American woman gastroenterologist, and also [indistinct] -- and others that I have mentioned. Jean Spaulding, first African-American female medical student to finish. Delano Merriweather, first African-American -- I mean, these folks shouldn't have to go and have a campaign to have their legacies remembered. And it should be done in a way that folks here across Duke and beyond should know because it's helped to make Duke Health what it is. DO 1:48:21 Completely agree. And thank you so much for your time, you gave us some amazing insights and information, stories, all of the above about Dr. Charles Johnson. Thank you so much. CJJ 1:48:34 You're very welcome.
Topic Log
0:26 Introduction of Dr. Charles Johnson as a part of the project. 1:28 Introducing Dr. Eugene Wright and his relationship with Dr. Johnson 7:16 Stories from Dr. Johnson's time in the medical school. Characterizing his approach to mentorship, making a difference, and patient care. 11:16 Important individuals connected to his legacy. 13:36 Doctor Johnson’s day-to-day. 15:46 Brief discussion of social determinants of health/healthcare 18:01 Dr. Johnsons involvement in programs, including “The Project 2000.” 22:13 Balancing his busy lifestyle. How did Dr. Johnson do it? 24:23 Dr. Charles Johnson’s “tough love” approach to mentorship; his process of trying to create change. 27:39 The decision to be a doctor. (What does it really mean?). 30:05 The experience of a Black medical student at the time. 32:55 Programs Dr. Johnson set forth and the resulting change brought about. 36:35 Dr. Johnson's role in diversifying the medical community beyond Black students. Influences of his early life on his advocating for change. 44:16 The legacy of Dr. Johnson; his large presence in the community and indirect change he brough about. 51:48 Dr. Charles Johnson as an inspiration. 55:20 An aspect of Dr. Johnson often overlooked (family, community, and his character). 59:08 Dr. Johnson as a “celebrity doctor.” 1:01:35 What would Dr. Johnson have to say about Duke as it stand today? (Closing).
Full Transcript
Danielle Okotcha 0:01 Hello, it is January 21st, 2024. My name is Danielle Okotcha, I'm a second-year undergraduate at Duke University, and I'm here with Dr. Eugene Wright, a colleague of the late Dr. Charles Johnson, for the Agents of Change Bass Connections oral history project. Thank you so much for being here, your insights are going to be very invaluable into kind of what we're trying to find out, what we're trying to record orally, and, thank you overall. Eugene Wright 0:26 Thank you for inviting me. DO 0:28 Of course. So overall, the project is kind of delving into the histories of advocacy and activism within Duke Health, especially with the centennial of Duke, just passing us here of the Duke Endowment. The overall arching goal of the project is to create kind of this comprehensive resource that commemorates the past of Duke Health and Duke as a whole, and serves as a valuable tool for overall, kind of being able to look over the course of Duke's history. Feel free to say a little bit about who you are right here in a second after I kind of go into Dr. Charles Johnson. So Dr. Charles Johnson, who we will be mainly talking about, was a very important figure in the medical field for Duke Health, as he was the first black faculty member at Duke School of Medicine. And overall, he made lots of very important changes for minorities within Duke Health and played a very significant role. And yes, feel free to tell us a little bit about who you are and your connection to him. EW 1:28 Sure. Well, Danielle, thank you for inviting me. And my name is Eugene Wright. I am a physician, retired physician now living in Charlotte, North Carolina; I attended Duke Medical School, out of college, and Dr. Johnson was one of the first people that I met during my interview, admissions interview, process, and who actually encouraged me to continue to pursue medical education. My background, I was an electrical engineer, as an undergraduate at Princeton, and when I came down to interview, it was really kind of just trying to decide between a life of career in engineering or a career in medicine, and I met Dr. Johnson among other people. Dr. Johnson really convinced me that the skills that I had learned as an engineer would serve me well in medicine, particularly for internal medicine in terms of investigation and how to apply facts to clinical practitioners. So, my earliest recollection of Dr. Johnson is one of a mentor and encourager to pursue a medical education. DO 2:46 Wow, that's very, very significant. And it seems like he very much had a very impactful kind of position in your life. So that's very interesting to hear. Thank you so much for that little introduction and your connection to him, and I guess now we'll kind of get into the questions. So for who Dr. Charles Johnson is. So overall, I'm sure you can kind of go online and see a lot of stuff about him. But specifically, who was Dr. Charles Johnson to you? I know you kind of briefly went into that. But what was your kind of first impression of him? Or what are some aspects of him you would like to highlight? EW 3:24 Well, you know, I thought about this, and there are a few words that I would use to characterize our relationship and what he meant to me. First of all, I indicated that he was a mentor, clearly someone that I looked up to, a role model if you will, a person who I wanted to emulate. But beyond that, he was a teacher and a friend, I considered him a friend. And we'll talk about some of the things that we did really not as a mentor-protege or a student-teacher, but really, as friends. But kind of the things that I think Dr. Johnson represented to me that were so attractive, were the concepts of discipline and excellence. And as you may know, before he entered medicine, he was in the Air Force as a jet fighter pilot. I never made that connection until years down the road, how the discipline he must have had, and the excellence he had to demonstrate in that field served him so well, both as a clinician, but also as a role model for others. DO 4:36 Yes, 100%. I'm sure he had a very interesting background overall. And that specific detail of his background, I'm sure very much influenced how he served as a leader for a lot of students that needed him very much. So yeah, it's very interesting that you kind of noticed that years down the line and drew that connection. And continuing, do you have—I'm sure you had a very specific relationship with him, but do you have any specific stories of him that you can kind of remember in your earlier relationship or later relationship with him that stand out to you specifically? EW 5:12 Well, you know, there are lots of stories that I can recall with Dr. Johnson. And, you know, some of the earlier ones, I think, when I first went into medical school, and the first year medical school is often filled with uncertainty -- you know, you're not sure that you're good enough, or that you're well prepared enough as your colleagues or your classmates, and you're trying to find your own way. You know, one of the stories I recall is that during a summer, between my first and second year, I actually spent time with Dr. Johnson, in his clinical practice, I was shadowing him. We went out and we would go and see patients all day, and then afternoon, we would stop and have lunch, and he would sit and talk a little bit about his background, and how he got to Duke. That really resonated with me and inspired me because I said, man, if this guy can go through all the things he went through and still be here now, as a faculty member at Duke, certainly I can do it. And you know, the challenge for him was he didn't have any mentors at that time. He was pretty much on his own; he likes to refer to himself as the tip of the spear. Certainly, I think in many ways he was. DO 6:31 100%. He definitely made a very large impact, and I'm not even sure if he realized how much of an impact he had made in that way. Tt must have been very fulfilling for him, I'm sure, especially not having a mentor in that way, to kind of be able to fill that role for other people. That's very, very interesting to know. Overall, would you say that once he had kind of joined as a faculty member—what way would you say that his role impacted the culture and the diversity within the medical community? Do you feel like it was an immediate change? Did you feel like it was kind of a mindset change overall? How do you feel like that kind of made a difference in that way? EW 7:16 So I've thought about this as well. I got to medical school in 1974. And Dr. Johnson had probably been on the faculty then for just a very short period of time. Now, the first black medical students attended actually came in the 1960s. During the whole decade of the 60s, there were only six black African American students to matriculate. So, by the time I got there, the total number of black students who had ever been there was more than doubled in the 70s. So it was an interesting time of change. I mean, we were around the campus; we were looking for people to kind of help us determine where we fit in. So to that point, you know, you see someone like Dr. Johnson who I would probably describe as a value-driven fighter for social justice. Looking back at him then it was just inspiring. At first, you were kind of in awe of him, once you learned a little bit about him, you were, I wouldn't say frightened, but you wanted to make sure that when you went to see him -- you know, if you had a tie on, you wanted to straighten your tie, your white coat was straight -- because, you know, he just was that kind of a figure. So he was a person, I think that we all looked up to for his values, but also his sense of social justice, and that really played itself out with how he took care of his patients. DO 8:58 Those are 100% very valuable attributes to have as a physician and also as a mentor in kind of a mixed role in that way. So that's very interesting to hear. I know we've kind of talked about this, but do you know specifically his involvement in the minority legacy program that they created? And how exactly he spearheaded that and/or how it necessarily affected specific people? EW 9:27 So there are a number of programs that were geared toward minorities, that Dr. Johnson was involved with. Now, in large part because he was one of very few minorities at Duke Medical Center at that time. But also, I think it was because as I had mentioned before, he was this fighter, if you will, for social justice. So many of these programs at the medical center (the minority recruitment and retention committee, the black faculty initiative) not just at the medical center, but at the university, he was integrally involved with early on. I think it would be fair and safe to say anything that involved recruitment retention, faculty development, faculty promotions for black and minority faculty, Dr. Johnson somehow had a hand in. DO 10:22 Wow, it's very, very important, very clearly. Also, it's very interesting to hear kind of the parallel drawn between him being a fighter for activism and a fighter pilot in real life previously. EW 10:35 And really, I think that that was -- you know, I'm one of these people that believe that everything happens for a reason sometimes, and it perfectly prepares you for something else. You may not know it at the time. But I do think that discipline and excellence that was ingrained in him as a pilot prepared him for what he had to do while he was at Duke. DO 10:57 100%, 100%, and do you do you know, of any specific -- I'm sure it was, I know, all minority community but also not necessarily, you know, everyone the but do you know any specifically any individuals that would directly, kind of were able to get to where they are because of his initiatives or any stories that come to mind in that way? EW 11:16 To get to where they are? Certainly, well, she's passed now, Dr. Brenda Armstrong, who was the director of admissions. Dr. Armstrong's father and Dr. Johnson were colleagues in the Old North State Medical Society, and he actually knew Dr. Armstrong from when she was an undergraduate student at Duke, went and did her residency at Wash U in St. Louis, and then came back as a fellow in pediatric cardiology at Duke, and then went on onto the faculty. And subsequently, became the Director of Admissions. Now, during her time, as Director of Admissions, diversity increased tenfold in the medical school in the medical center, if you look at African American, Latino women -- all of those increased under Dr. Armstrong's leadership in that position. So I think if you look back -- where did Dr. Armstrong kind of look to get her guidance of where she wanted to go? If she were here today, she would tell you it was clearly Dr. Johnson. So his impact I think, has rippled through generations, if you will, of medical students, as well as residents at the medical center. DO 12:36 Yeah, 100%. Brenda Armstrong is definitely a name that comes to mind. So it's very interesting that you highlight that. And I. And I also think it's very interesting, kind of, I guess, going back to what you were saying about "everything happens for a reason," the specific path that led to them meeting and their relationship. EW 12:53 Oh, absolutely. There are no accidents in life. They all you know, will you learn this, when you look back, looking forward, it's hard to see them. But when you look back, you said there must have been a reason that they intersected as early as they did in her career. I'm sure at the time that she was an undergraduate student at Duke, she had no idea that she would be the Director of Admissions and lead such a transformational change in the medical school. But for intersecting with Dr. Johnson and Dr. [Onyekwere] Akwari, who were there at that time, providing that leadership and saying, "these are the things that really need to be done, and we've kind of prepared some of this for you, take it and learn." DO 13:36 100%, I definitely agree with all of that. it's very interesting to hear some of these kind of less out there details about how their paths crossed, and just relationships on that level. Continuing from talking about his relationships, do you know exactly -- what would you envision his daily schedule kind of looking like or what he would kind of go through in the day to day, I'm sure you don't know exactly what. EW 14:05 Well, you know, from working with him during the summers, I had a pretty good glimpse of his schedule. I would meet him at his office at 7:30 in the morning, and he would already be there. Typically, finishing up some things from the previous day or looking to see if there were specific tasks that he had for that day, we would typically leave for clinic. Right around eight o'clock, we would start clinic, we would typically work through lunch, and usually take a late lunch. So we would see patients, and if I can just kind of digress a bit, his relationship with his patients was so different than I expected for a physician. We always -- I always had this paternalistic view of what a physician would be: you go in they tell you what's wrong, and you tell you what to do... His was more of a conversation with his patients. Some of the things that I would say I took from that is that he emphasized the importance of listening to your patients and seeking to understand before you ask to be understood. And at the time, I was really wrestling with that, (what did he mean?) I now appreciate that for anyone to understand what you're telling them, they must feel that you understand their situation. And so one of the things, one of the quotes I attributed to him and it's not his, but he says, if you have two ears and one mouth, and use them in that proportion, both you and your patients will be well served. DO 15:46 It's a very, very good quote. And also, it kind of calls to mind, even just thinking as being a physician, the sort of holistic view of being a physician that you want to have. But also taking into account, like you said, patients as people before even you kind of get into that doctor's office. EW 16:07 It's interesting, because this was a carryover again from a person who was very influential in his life, Dr. Eugene Stead, who actually recruited, if you will encouraged, Dr. Johnson to join the faculty, always had this thing of talking to your patients, and understanding your patient's lived experiences. Now, today, we call that the social determinants of health. But 50 years ago, there was no such terminology. But it was very, very common for Dr. Stead to always ask us "what's this patient's lived experience like? Is there plumbing? Do they have indoor plumbing? Do they have outdoor?" That was a part of our training to ask those questions. We want to know about their diseases, what medicines they took. But he went beyond that, and Dr. Johnson picked right up on that and you could see that in his conversations with his patients. He knew more about his patients than I could ever expect to know. DO 17:11 And it's interesting to even talk about because I think a lot of times we kind of assume a physician being in that role. But in reality, it's something that you have to work towards and consciously make sure you're using this holistic approach, seeing the patient as a whole person. And it's very interesting to know that he very much so put that forth and his practice. But kind of continuing to more positive things: Do any specific moments come to mind where you would see him face backlash with maybe initiatives and programs he was trying to create, or just in general, kind of with diversifying the community? EW 18:01 Well, you know, that's a tough one for me. I can tell you the stories that Dr. Johnson shared with me when he first came to Duke and he would go up on the wards, many times the nurses nor the ward secretaries would not speak to him even though he would speak to them. Oftentimes, they would not assist him when he asked for assistance. But specific backlash about programs or things that he was doing, I was not aware of. I knew there were challenges, and there were always things that he was working on. But as a medical student, and as a resident, we typically just saw the results of all of the work that he had done. Now, I know that, as he worked outside of Duke, both in the Durham community with the Durham Academy of Medicine, and at the national level with the National Medical Association, he was very much at the forefront of what was called "The Project 2000" at that time, to increase the number of Black and minority students admitted to medical school, and actually, really was one of the champions who went to the Secretary of HEW (Health Education and Welfare) and the president at that time to lobby for those kinds of programs to increase recruitment and retention. So I'm sure there was backlash and pushback at that level, but I was just never, at that level, involved with that. DO 19:33 Yeah, and that's understandable. I feel like a lot of times, even when there is things like backlash, or even just issues with people not being supportive of programs diversifying, I feel like a lot of the times it's kind of easier for those to be less visible than for it to be like outward backlash. So, that makes a lot of sense with that. Also with the backlash and things like that would you say that things like that you mentioned kind of with people maybe not taking him seriously; would you say that that was something that he kind of brushed off his shoulder or that he tried to use in other ways if that makes sense? EW 20:18 I think there were very few things that he brushed off that were important to him. I think, from my observation, if there was something that was very important to him, such as increasing recruitment and retention of minority medical students, increasing black faculty, increasing black residents -- he would find a way he would not stop if you just said, "no, we can't do that." He would never take no for an answer for that, and I suspect he had people who were not pleased with that he wouldn't take no, and you know, he would not back down in that sense. But again, this guy's a fighter pilot, he doesn't stop just at the first barrier. He keeps pursuing. And I do remember, you know, again, you think about all of these sayings that come up as you characterize him. There's a saying that says, "you may not like me, but you will respect me." And I think he personified that even though you know, being the first, you're going to often be revered and maybe reviled. But even those that didn't like him, respected him, for his work ethic, and his not backing down. DO 21:35 I think, definitely being a fighter pilot and kind of him personifying that past role through his more current [most past recent] role in Duke Health was definitely important and I also think in general, being kind of a trailblazer in that way, again, as you kind of said, it seems very perfect with how he worked, how he had that kind of background, or he had to kind of portray that. EW 21:59 He was perfectly prepared for the role that he had. He just didn't know it at the time. I'm sure he did not know when he was out flying the Jets, that he would end up in medical school and the faculty at Duke. DO 22:13 100% and continuing off of that, do you think that while he was kind of creating these programs and initiatives, and also working with other people to create this change, that it was difficult for him at times, kind of balancing, serving as a supporting figure for the black students, while also sort of trying to create more lasting programs for them? EW 22:41 Well, I'm sure that it was, having lived a life of trying to balance all that.. it never showed with him, though. I mean, he was the kind of person, and again this was part of this thing of us wanting to be like him, he always seemed to have it under control. You know, he never seemed to be you know, flustered, confused about what we do now. It was always well, we go to the next plan. I'm sure there were times that were challenging for him and times that he had to consider, why am I doing this? But we never knew it. DO 23:19 Yeah, I'm sure. He seems almost at this point as superhuman kind of balancing things, while also using all of his different life experiences to support his work and those around him. Overall, I'm in awe of him as well, I'm trying to be like him. EW 23:38 Well, he was, you know, it's, you know, we, oftentimes, when you think of him, you know, I thought he couldn't have been that good. But in fact, he was, I think, and it was not that he was superhuman, but I think his human qualities really defined him. And it's hard to find someone who has that type of a background, that type of where-with-all except for discipline and excellence. You know, those two character traits, really defined who he was, and those are the things I think that I recall most about him. DO 24:23 And kind of continuing off this sort of fighter pilot fighter, fighter for activism, kind of theme that's common here, with how would you describe his specific kind of modes of speech when perhaps he was talking to a Black student or helping them through something, or, in general, just his interactions with people? Would you say he used a very tough love approach to drive this positive change within the medical community, or just advocating for reform in general? How would you describe this looks like perhaps maybe with your own experiences and other colleagues? EW 24:59 Sure. Oh, you know, it's interesting, I think, as a medical student and a resident, very much tough love. I mean, you really had to, you know -- but it was compassionate, tough love. I mean, you knew that if things got tough for you, he would be the first one there for you. Now, when talking to his patients.. completely different. It was a friendship, you know, "How are you doing? How are the kids doing? Tell me about your life? What's going on? and how can I help you?" As a medical student, again, it was more, I will say, cuddling a little bit, it was reassuring you that you could make it. By the time you got to residency, it was okay, you've got the tools, you are here, there are no excuses. Now, you have to perform, because there are others looking to you for what they're going to do next. So you have to step up. DO 25:55 Well, I feel like a tough love approach -- I mean, some people would say there's positives and negatives to that -- but I also think the fact that as you described, he was kind of able to implement different methods, whether with his patients or people he felt needed tough love, perhaps, I think is very telling of him as a person. EW 26:18 One of the things about that approach, and I'll speak from personal experience, is that I think he had the ability to see things in you, that you often didn't see in yourself. And his job, he felt, was to bring that out. It's hard to put something in someone that is not already there, right. But the best you can do is to try to bring out what's there, even if they don't know it's there, and that's the kind of tough love, if you will, that I would characterize. In each of us, he saw something different and his job he felt was, how do I get that out of that person, and let them be the best that they can be. And sometimes that was tough. DO 27:03 100% and I also think that's very, again, a very important attribute to have because I think a lot of times, perhaps when you're trying to create programs for minorities, or trying to create this [more equity] for this group of people, it's very easy to see them as monolithic or just think generally. I think the fact that he was still very individualistic towards each individual person shows kind of a very humanistic side, and him as a whole being seemingly able to balance a lot. EW 27:39 Now, you made me think of a question that he asked all of us, is "Why do you want to be a doctor?" Now the standard answer was that, you know, we want to help people. He said, you know, you can help a lot of people, and you don't have to be a doctor to do that. "So why do you want to be a doctor?" And it really makes you stop and think, okay, other than I want to help people what is it about being a doctor that is important to me? And that kind of self reflection, and he would guide you through that some you know, but it would help you feel a little bit differently after you talked with him than you did when you went in. DO 28:15 Yeah, I think that's a question people within, even outside of the medical community often think about, and I feel like that is a very common answer. But, I feel like there's definitely, other reasons as well, I agree with what he said; there's definitely many ways to help people, but being a doctor itself, I mean, at least in my opinion... EW 28:39 If you look at people's lived situations and lived experiences, if I have outdoor toileting, and all that I can help you a lot, preventing disease by giving you indoor plumbing. I don't have to be a doctor to do that. But it really made you look at yourself, question your own motives. I suspect there may have been some people that said, you know, I really don't want to be a doctor that has just been expected of me. But it's far better to learn that going in than to waste four years of your time and somebody's money to get at the end and realize you don't want to do that. DO 29:22 I definitely agree with that. Even aside from the money, I think just thinking about maybe people in the profession that aren't necessarily the best at their job, whether with their patient interactions and things like that --that's definitely something to consider for sure. And I'm glad he kind of brought that to your attention.` EW 29:41 We see this so many times, not just in minorities, but lots of doctors who are miserable at doing what they do. Wouldn't it have been so much better for them and potentially for their patients if someone had asked them that early on, and given them an off ramp? You don't have to do this the other way; there are other things you can do to help people. DO 30:05 And I also feel that being a minority student at that time, I feel like it would maybe have been very "go go go" or, you're in the program, you've made it there, not necessarily thinking about, do I actually want to be a doctor? I think asking those questions is very important. Because, again, overall, being a doctor as tough, or becoming one is tough. EW 30:31 Being one ain't so easy, either (laughs). But you're right and I think in this whole time when he's there, when he's trying to increase the number of applications for qualified black students, and that there's always this thing: Are you just letting students in because they're black? Or are you letting them in because they're qualified, and Black? And this whole thing and having to wrestle with that, and then having to have the students themselves question whether or not they're good enough to be there. And those are the kinds of, I'll say, pressures that many of us went through early on, that Dr. Johnson, amongst the other couple of Black faculty we had there, Dr. Carter, helped us deal with in a way that I think made us stronger. DO 31:26 100%, and I am sure, I think about today, kind of impostor syndrome being strong in Black students and academia, and I can imagine how, how strong it would have been then being an even more extreme minority. EW 31:42 So well, like I said, I know, people who are entering medical school who academically were much better prepared, but didn't make it through. DO 31:52 Yes and I think it's also very important to know, there's so many factors that go into making it through in general. I think, again, the role that he would have served in providing both I'm sure, academic support and also personal support is very, significant for that, because I feel like that plays a very big part in making it to the end. EW 32:17 Well, we understand that today. But if you go back to the 1950s years ago, those concepts were not as clear. And I think what you were then you were dealing with the same issues that you just described, but now people who are very, not very proficient in, you know, the therapy of going through that if you will, of that helping people go through that. So they relied on their shared experiences, they relied on goal setting, those kinds of tools and resources, to help us really become all that we could be. DO 32:55 Yeah, it's really amazing when you when you say it out loud you know. I'm sure you guys kind of maybe talked about all the time out loud when it was happening, but I think kind of reflecting back, I'm sure it's nice to appreciate. And kind of continuing off of that. I know, we kind of already talked about some, but are there any specific programs that he implemented, that you feel you have personally, maybe benefited from or that you just remember significantly people were discussing this and you could feel the difference kind of palpable in real time? EW 33:34 Well, I think the programs that I, in retrospect, benefited from, as I said, the early programs that Dr. Johnson, Dr. Woodall, Dr. Stead, and Dr. Will [indistinct] was a dean at the time that Dr. Johnson became (Dr. Stead was the chairman of medicine) to first of all, get Dr. Johnson on the faculty. The other person they brought was Dr. Curry, Charles Curry a cardiologist and his sister, Dr. Sadie Curry, who was a gastroenterologist. Just at that time, having gone through all of the issues of the 60s to get that core group of physicians who were trained at Howard, who had worked and done their residency at a Duke affiliate program at Lincoln Hospital in Durham, they were really never on the full-fledged Duke faculty there. To have the wherewithal to say, okay, now that we've done this, we can't stop here; we've got to increase our numbers. The best way to get good first-rate faculty is to train your own, right? So let's start with medical students let's get some of the best medical students we can get. Let's get residents and let's train them to become faculty members. Now, that's not a quick fix, that's a process But having the wherewithal to sit down and to outline that at that time, when you could have just sat back and said, I made it, I'm over here at Duke, now I'm good. I think I was personally affected by that. And I'm sure others, even though they may not know, benefited from that, because whether they had got to Johnson's early involvement, at that point in increasing the faculty to the residency program, as well as medical students. DO 35:34 Yeah, 100%. I feel like a lot of times, if we're trying to implement change, or trying to implement programs for people, I think, a lot of times it's hard to see and have those kinds of difficult questions here in real-time, because of the things we're implementing, things maybe even for future generations, that we will kind of see that effect later on, or that maybe the numbers themselves will kind of show themselves more later on, I think it's very interesting to note. Continuing off of that, I'm sure you can't speak for him necessarily exactly. But what would you say his views were, kind of his ideas on the marginalized communities, including the Black community, or even individuals of lower socio-economic status? How did that kind of reflect in his teachings or just kind of his day-to-day interactions? How would you say he kind of saw those issues through his point of view? EW 36:35 You know, it's interesting, I think everyone saw Dr. Johnson at that time, you know, as a Black doctor who cared for Black patients. Few people realized that he had so many white patients, who loved him as much, perhaps even more than some of the Black patients did. And they came from all socio-economic levels, and he didn't discriminate against them. He really had that type of relationship with his patients: he cared for them, he would listen to them, he would try to help them through things. And so, it's easy to think of him as the first Black doctor, therefore he's taking care of all the Black patients, many people miss the fact that so many non-Black patients, white patients, Asian patients, Hispanic patients, loved Dr. Johnson. DO 37:37 Yeah, I'm very glad you note that because I think it's hard to, it's very easy I mean, to put people in a box and kind of say, he did this [equality for Black patients only], but I'm sure he was a great doctor, to everyone, even just talking about minorities in general, not just Black people, creating change for everyone in general. I think it's also interesting to note when we're kind of talking in the past about issues of maybe systemic level issues, I think all have in common in kind of contemporary society, we kind of talk a lot about systemic issues when we're talking about these racial issues. I mean, I can't speak for myself, but kind of thinking back to then, would you guys have really thought systemic level [racism]? Is that what language you would have used? Or would have been more so different? EW 38:27 We thought more in the lines of, during the 60s and 70s, we were very racial focused. I mean, that was our focus. Dr. Johnson similarly, had a focus on equality across race, but I think his went beyond race. Again, looking back, I think his really was more of a class kind of thing. Because, as I said, he cared for so many white patients, so many Hispanic patients, that people just kind of never associated [with him] and he was as strong an advocate for them as he was for the Black patients. So you know, the systemic issues, perhaps, you know, we look at them in the context of, well, what can Duke do to level the playing field? What can Duke do to promote fair, equitable health care for all? I think, you know, increasing diversity in the medical students, residents and in the faculty, is a first step in that process. And making sure that you get people who will take care of all those patients and treat them as they would anyone else. So perhaps he was very early on very much involved in systemic kind of changes. DO 39:49 100%, and also, do you feel, kind of talking about these issues of like socio-economic status and race and kind of these kind of minority issues; Do you feel that his experiences specifically in his position kind of influenced his perspectives on intersectionalities with race and healthcare? And, I'm also thinking about Duke stories like Maltheus Avery and things like that -- do you think that specifically, he kind of in his role changed his viewpoint or insight into some of these areas? EW 40:26 Well, it's an interesting question. I hadn't thought about this. But if you look at his history, where he grew up in Alabama, and his first entry into school, which was a segregated school, he actually had to plead with his parents to let him go to school. They were sharecroppers on the farm, and to go to school was a luxury at that time for him. But I think his yearning to learn more, to kind of go to the next step, got him into school. But I think in that rural southern Alabama, where he grew up, he saw that it wasn't just Black folks that were suffering. I think that may have early on, given him a little bit of a view into the whole thing about lived experiences and soci-economic status. You know, what is his purpose? His purpose is to try to, I don't know if he leveled the playing field for them, but [he] certainly improved the quality of care that they can access. You know, he very much did that, again, for his patients and that's what he instilled in us, as students and residents. You know, that you have to take care of the patient. DO 41:47 I think it's very nice to note the whole issue of healthcare quality as well. Because I think, often we think about health care, but the quality is something important. Whether it's quality, rated by the physician, or also just the access. So I think that's very important to know. Additionally, we talked about some of his very close relationships and other individuals like him that created change. But do you recall any specific appointments or decisions he made, that you felt made, especially big impacts, maybe other individuals that you know of that he appointed in positions? I knoq that might be kind of a difficult question... EW 42:26 Appointments? I'm not sure, you mean, at the medical center? DO 42:30 Yes. EW 42:32 I don't know that he made specific appointments, because, you know, he was never a department chair or section chief. He was consulted, I know, widely on lots of people that ended up becoming either faculty or residents. So he would be consulted in that capacity but I don't think he specifically made appointments. You know, that's an interesting question. I don't know of anybody specifically but I think he may have been a voice, a rather firm voice in Dr. Armstrong becoming the medical school admissions director. I'm certain that he had a voice in that. And he probably had a voice in several other key appointments that he himself wouldn't have made, but may have been consulted on. DO 43:27 Yeah, Brenda Armstrong is definitely a name that comes to mind when thinking about that. and in general. So yeah, and I know that's kind of a difficult question, but I was curious. So additionally, what legacy do you feel he specifically left at Duke Hospital, and how [has] his impact continued to influence the commitment to diversity and equity in health care. It must be a little hard thinking about it today and in general. But do you see anything in Duke Health that you feel could've definitely been introduced by him, even aside from the increase in the Black students in the medical center and medical school? EW 44:16 So, attributable to him... I think his greatest legacy will be the number of African American and non-white faculty. You know, as being the first, you know, everyone's waiting for you to fail or waiting for you to succeed. And that, in many ways, I think, sets the tone or kind of gets the ground ready for the next. So I think his greatest legacy would certainly be African American faculty followed by the House staff, you know. Because he himself was a house staff member, though not at Duke, at Lincoln Hospital -- I think he has a legacy that many of the house staff that are there now, some of the chief residents or assistant chief residents, really are there because of him. And certainly the medical school and medical students through Dr. Armstrong and Dr. Johnson's involvement with that. So I think, you know, other areas of his legacy would be -- gosh, it's hard to say. There are probably very few areas in the medical center that were not touched by his presence: from the public wards to the private wards, to what we call the medical outpatient clinic, for the non-private patients to the private diagnostic center patients, I think they've all felt his presence. DO 45:52 100% and I also didn't think about it that way, like the many different wealth levels that his influence would have, and faculty staff in general, so that's very interesting to note as well. I know, kind of, I haven't had many specific interactions, [indistinct] now, being an undergraduate. But my experiences, I definitely have seen it be diverse in different ways, or going to the hospital and just being able to see kind of, in general how the structure works as a whole, and seeing more people like myself, that, is definitely very nice to see. EW 46:32 Well, if you think about it, 50 years ago, you would not have been able to see that and some would argue that it would have happened anyway. I would argue that Johnson was there in 1973, when I came to interview, and I saw a visible change in the presence over the time that I was there, just in the four years. When I came back in '95, really we had Black department chairs at that time, both OBGYN and surgery. We, in every clinical department had Black faculty, that wasn't there when he got there. DO 47:18 Yeah, definitely had a very, very large impact. And also within his activism, do you feel you saw -- like, do you feel even post him being a faculty member on the Duke team, his activism sort of led to a shift in practices within the system, or the Duke community, even maybe not necessarily counting the people that followed him or the other Black faculty that kind of followed, post him? EW 47:48 I think his activism was very important early on in getting the needle moving. Now, I think, you know, everybody has to carry their share of the load and I think because he was instrumental in making sure we got the right people early on, it made it much easier, subsequently, to get others, both from the academic side at Duke, but also attracting others who were academically qualified, but did not want to go somewhere where they would be the only or the first, right, because of all the issues around that. So quickly, you know, moving things to get to a critical mass, where it is easier to attract qualified, bright, diverse candidates to positions, I think that is part of his legacy I was talking about. DO 48:45 And I think it also caused the difficulty of both like, I guess, maybe spearheading others that are going to be the first in that field and also being that individual or perhaps being the only one in the room of your race or just that comes from your background, is difficult in general. So even all the people I'm sure he inspired, or the people that worked with him as part of a team in general, I feel like that's definitely something very difficult to stick with and continue with for many years, which he did. EW 49:19 You know, it's interesting, you talk about the people who work with him on a team, certainly on the faculty and medical students' side, but there was also the nurses. We saw changes in nursing leadership at Duke. We saw changes in clinical assistants. And, you know, it's interesting when you're there and going back to those early years. When I would go onto the ward with Dr. Johnson. The African-American nurses, African-American nursing assistants smiled at me because he came there and that was something that was completely new to them and they felt proud. You felt that sense of pride that they had. It was just, it was palpable. Everywhere you went around the hospital, people would see him, and they just, they lit up. DO 50:11 I almost want that kind of experience. I mean, I'm talking about him, I guess we're all, we're both sort of lighting up in that way. But it's very, very nice to hear kind of his presence and [indistinct]... EW 50:24 And there's few people that can do that, that and I think that was really what makes it so special. At that time with all that was going on, to have the wherewithal to compose yourself, again, discipline, an excellence to be able to be that person to be bigger than life itself sometimes, to walk into a chaotic environment at that time because, like I said, some people revered him, some people reviled him, and then have a kind of presence to be able to go through there and do your job, and just be the tip of the spear, was really unique. DO 51:08 He served a very unique and special role as just part of the history of Duke Health, which currently, it's about 100 or so years now, if you count the endowment. And I think it's very important; I'm really glad we're noting all of these things, and kind of going off of what we were talking about, in your own words, how would you say that his role has kind of influenced the subsequent generations of healthcare professionals and activists, and in general those working towards equitable healthcare systems now. How do you feel that he kind of serves as a maybe a blueprint in some ways for them? Or just a point to note in terms of success and flexibility and hard work? EW 51:58 Well, I think if you look at the number of people who came through Duke during that time, met Dr. Johnson worked with Dr. Johnson, were inspired by Dr. Johnson. They've gone on to do some significant things. And the people that come to mind to me are people like Dr. James Gavin, he was the president at the Morehouse school in Atlanta. Dr. Bertram Walls, Dr. Jerome Williams. I mean, I could go on [indistinct] was there with Dr. Johnson, Dr. Merriwether was the first African-American student, Dr. Jean Spaulding, Dr. Joanne Wilson, I mean, there are just so many people that he touched in those early years who've gone on to have fantastic careers, have been able to go out and change the world, so to speak, in their respective areas. I think Dr. Johnson had part in their success. DO 53:07 Yeah, it's very, I feel like his, in a way, his impact is kind of hard to follow necessarily specific people or individuals. And in general, I'm sure today, being even myself, an undergraduate student who is pre-med, I definitely have probably been positively impacted by him, or even other medical students that are in the medical school right now, that are minorities, I'm sure definitely feel as impact. So it's very, very widespread in that way. EW 53:38 Now, one of the other things, I think, you know, and we often don't talk about this, but I got to thinking about this as we were raising money for the Dr. Charles Johnson scholarship. There were a number of non-African-American students who were influenced by him. Students, residents, and faculty. And, you know, we think about his scope as really only touching those Black students. No, I think there were a lot of people that were favorably influenced by him and the qualities that he exhibited: discipline, excellence, fair treatment for patients, and that people, irrespective of their race, creed, upbringing, respect, that type of disciplined approach and those values that Dr. Johnson embodied. I think they also were affected by him. DO 54:37 I definitely agree. I think it's easy to kind of put these sorts of figures in boxes and maybe direct it. I feel like it's just easier to say in a sentence like, oh, Dr. Charles Johnson, he helped Black students or he helped these types of students. But I think in general, just figures of activism, they tend to help a lot more people than we know. EW 55:02 Well, and I think that can be said for, in fact, I think if you were to interview white students from our time there, either as students or residents, many of them would have the same thing to say about him. DO 55:20 For sure and additionally, kind of in closing, what is an aspect of him today that you feel is overlooked that you would personally like to note. I know, we talked a lot about his fighter pilot slash fighter activism mode. But do you feel there's another aspect of him that is overlooked and not really noted by most people? EW 55:47 No, that's interesting. Yeah, he obviously had a life outside of medicine. He had a family, he had children. He had a very active life within the Durham community outside of medicine. And I've just been impressed that, you know, when you go back to Durham, and you talk about Dr. Johnson, there are people who were not associated at the medical center but still think of him fondly in his neighborhood, his old neighborhood, where he lived, his neighbors, some were his patients, some were not. But he is often, you know, thought about fondly spoken of fondly, by those who knew him outside of medicine. Which would say to me that he, you know, he was a good person that happened to be a doctor. DO 56:43 That's a very interesting way to note it (laughs). I feel a lot of people tie their identity to their profession maybe, or would highlight him in that way, specifically, as that was the role he served in a significant way. But I feel like being a doctor, actually, maybe it is better to be a good person who happens to be a doctor (laughs). EW 57:06 Well, you know, certainly that's my experience. At the time, I didn't know that because I had this idea of what a doctor was and he embodied all that. But, you know, oftentimes looking back on your life and the lives of others, you realize there's some genuinely good people that end up being in whatever they ended up being. For him, he ended up being a doctor, and he was very good at being a doctor. But I think even before that, he was a good person. DO 57:36 Even beyond the scope of Duke, all the work that he did, was incredible. I think it's important to know, as he was saying, not to just focus on maybe his contributions to a certain group of people, the contributions he made to the medical community, contributions he made personally in his life, with his family life, with his relationships, academic, personal. I think, overall, he's very, a very amazing person, a good person who happened to be a doctor, as you said. EW 58:09 (Laughs). I think that characterizes my opinion of him. You know, I had the privilege of him taking care of my father and my mother while they were alive, and, I mean, they just thought the world of him. But I noticed, you know, I noticed that he did not treat them any differently than he did his other patients. You know, sometimes you think, oh, because I know you, he's going to treat you differently, give you special treatment. They were treated like all the other patients. DO 58:41 That's, that's very amazing. Because I feel, and a lot of, I mean, even speaking, I guess a bit negatively. There's a lot of bias in some types of medicine. But I think, in general, having a good bedside-manner, having good relationships with people, and also being able to give them comprehensive health care objectively is very important. So that's very interesting to hear. EW 59:08 Well, some other trivia that you may or may not know from looking at it [hime]. Dr. Johnson was also somewhat of a celebrity doctor. Many people don't know this, but amongst his patients, I guess I could say this now, the former chancellor of North Carolina Central [University] Dr. Julius Chambers, who you may remember, was the law clerk for one of the first African-American Supreme Court justices, Dr. John Hope Franklin was one amongst his patients, Dr. C Eric Lincoln, a notable black historian at Duke was one of his patients. Dr. Prezell Robinson, who was the president of St. Augustine's College at the time, was one of his patients. Many people don't know about Dr. Robinson. He, Dr. Robinson was actually one of the people during the Croation and the Bosnian conflict, was sent to take the children out and to try to get them to learn how to live together. But, a noted educator in Raleigh.. But then he also had people that came from as far away as Maryland, to see Dr. Johnson. So he was really kind of a celebrity in his own right, you would never know this talking to him. But he had, and these were more than patients, I think these people were friends to him as well. They didn't all start as friends, but when they met him, they would always say, you know, you're different than any doctor I've ever seen. You know, and they would want to come back and see him, and he oftentimes would visit them. And I had the privilege at the time when I was at Duke, becoming the doctor to many of those patients that I inherited from Dr. Johnson, and actually was a physician for Dr. Johnson for the time that I was at Duke as well. So it was particularly heartwarming for me, to see that he would want to come and see me as his doctor. DO 1:01:10 Yeah, I could definitely see that and I definitely identify with making the Maryland to Duke trek. And if I were there a few years ago with him as well, I would definitely make that trek to go see him. EW 1:01:23 Well, they did, a number of patients would come down. And I asked him, I said, why did they do that? He said, I guess they want to see the best. DO 1:01:35 I definitely respect that. And I guess one last final question is, do you if you were here today -- what do you think he would think of the kind of current state of Duke health? Or what do you think is one thing that he would kind of have to say if he were here today? EW 1:01:57 Ah, boy, that's a tough one. Probably, he would say something like, we've come a long way. But we have a long way to go. He would look back, he would, he would not dwell on what we've done. But really, look at the opportunities we have in the future. He would acknowledge that we've come a long way from back in the 1970s when he came, but he would also point out that we still have a ways to go. DO 1:02:27 100% and I think in even, in doing an oral history project, it's important to know how significant the past is and the future is when considering things like these, because progress can always continue to be made. I think it also speaks to, kind of, building upon the work of your predecessors, and the people after him that have also been working towards the same, the same future and stuff like that. And I think that's very important to know. And that would be very cool of him if he were here to say that. Yeah, and thank you, thank you overall, for all of that great information on Dr. Charles Johnson. Both academically, both as a person as a fighter pilot, as an activist, as a celebrity, everything. Also, as a physician, who happens to be a good person or the other way around (laughs). EW 1:03:25 And a good person who happens to be a physician. DO 1:03:31 And thank you so much, overall. EW 1:03:29 Well, thank you. It was nice meeting you all. Did I get that right? All right. My name is Eugene Wright, I'm a consulting associate in the Department of Medicine at Duke University Medical Center.