Donald Moore
Jump to interview with Bertram WallsJump to interview with Karen MooreTopic Log
00:02 Introductions 00:18 Recalls his initial meeting with Dr. Donald Moore 01:09 Description of the environment at Duke Medical Center and Durham 03:30 Perception of Dr. Moore among attendings and medical school students 04:46 Dr. Moore's personal outreach to black medical students 07:29 Discussion on Dr. Moore's approach to challenges and opposition within Duke Medical Center 09:56 Exploration of Dr. Moore's motivation for providing healthcare to underserved minority women; setting up clinics at Lincoln Hospital 11:48 Recounts his experience working at clinics established by Dr. Moore 13:39 Clarification about the clinics and their relationship to Duke Medical Center and Lincoln Hospital. 13:48 Discussion on the history of Lincoln Hospital; bridging Duke University and the black community 15:49 Description of Dr. Moore's relationship with the community 17:45 Reflection on Dr. Moore's mentorship beyond the clinical setting 19:15 Relationship with Dr. Moore after completing his residency 21:54 Discussion on Dr. Moore's advocacy for black excellence and mentorship of black students 24:29 Perception of Dr. Moore among white attendings and physicians 27:04 Discussion about the unique learning experiences under Dr. Moore's mentorship, including hands-on training and exposure to different approaches in medicine. 29:34 Reflecting on Dr. Moore’s lasting impact on himself and the community 32:19 Discussion on Dr. Moore's involvement in the community beyond his clinical work 33:08 Reflections on Dr. Moore's legacy 36:15 Dr. Walls expresses appreciation for the interview project and emphasizes the importance of preserving the legacies of influential figures for future generations. 39:06 Closing remarks and interview tasks
Full Transcript
Gemma Holland 0:02 My name is Gemma Holland. The date is February 10, 2024, and I'm interviewing Dr. Bertram Walls about Dr. Donald Moore for the Agents of Change Oral History Project. Okay, Dr. Walls. Can you explain your relationship with Dr. Moore? Bertram Walls 0:18 Yes, I met Dr. Moore. When I was a second-year medical student at Duke, rotating through the OB-GYN program as a second-year medical student. I met him there. He was one of the attending physicians during that time, and certainly very distinguished because he looked somewhat like me. And at the time, in about 1975, I guess when I met him. There were very few black faculty members at the medical center, and so he certainly stood out. GH 1:09 Yeah, can you describe a little bit more what was it like, I guess Duke Med and in Durham during this time? BW 1:20 Well, I was in medical school from 1973 to 1976. Durham itself was a nice little town, a gritty tobacco town during that time. Duke had probably about five or six years earlier made a concerted effort to increase its diversity of students and faculty. So certainly, we were in the minority. In my medical school class, there were six Blacks out of about 110 students. The percentage was still fairly low, but we did have a presence at that time. And prior to coming to medical school, there were probably about maybe 15 other [black] medical students that were further along in their studies at Duke than I was, so it was interesting from that perspective. There [were] still some vintages of segregation on the floors, in terms of the staffing [and] where the patients were located. Those who had money had better accommodations than those who didn't. The care, I thought, was equally given to all patients. So that was a good thing. And so it was, you know, and Duke being Duke was somewhat of a difficult environment in of itself, but we felt that we were supposed to be there. We really didn't feel, at least I didn't feel, any sense of them being hard[er] on me than the other students. GH 3:15 Given this environment that you just described, how do you think other attendings or medical school students would have described Dr. Moore during this time? BW 3:30 Well, I think obviously, he was a very, very gifted physician. He was a very eloquent dresser. He had great communication skills. He certainly could command the attention of anyone around him, including the patients that he took care of. He was trained at a predominately black medical school and residency program, but you would never know it, watching him work in that type of environment. GH 4:13 Do you remember if there are any moments with Dr. Moore that stood out to you as a student? You said there were around six other black students. Did he particularly speak to you guys all the time? Or what was the relationship like between you guys and Dr. Moore if that makes sense? BW 4:46 It does make sense. As I said before, we only had maybe three or four faculty at Duke at the time, who were black. Dr. Moore was the only black attending an OB-GYN. There was Dr. Johnson who was in internal medicine, Dr. Jacquelyne Jackson, who was there in sociology, and one other black physician in psychiatry. So, once he saw me and some of the other black medical students, he invited us over to his home to meet his family. And just to kind of give us some semblance of being with someone that we could understand where we were, and kind of what we're trying to do. And he certainly gave us a lot of encouragement, in terms of being able to survive in any kind of environment. And, you know, he would constantly tell us that excellence will always prevail. So, it didn't matter whether you're black, white, green, or blue, whether you're male or female, that allows you to excel in what you do; you will do very well. He encouraged us not to be just as good as everyone else, but better than everyone else. So that kind of pushed us along to make sure that we always [did] our best and work[ed] very hard. You know, we had fellowship and his home. When I became a resident, at the department OB-GYN at Duke. Certainly, I had more meetings with him and working with him on his surgeries and those kinds of things. So, again, I got the chance to see he has excellent technical skills. And, you know, I think that one of the things that I feel that he did for me is that he taught me the art of practicing medicine. Duke kind of taught me the science of medicine, but he taught me the art of practicing medicine. He was in a solo practice. So, he had to manage his office, come deliver babies, do surgery, and work with Lincoln Hospital, which was a predominantly black hospital at the time. So that inspired me to go [into] private practice and the same thing. GH 7:29 So, you would say you knew him both professionally and personally? Did he ever candidly speak about any challenges or opposition that he was facing within Duke Med or the Duke Health System? BW 7:59 Not really, I mean, it was unspoken at the time. It was talk[ed] about in the 1960s and 1970s, and [some] felt that everyone should not be included. I think what he ingrained in me and other students is that we couldn't use that as an excuse to be less than what we should be. So he didn't moan and groan. Obviously, when he came to Duke; he knew where he was coming. He accepted the challenge, and he knew there would be challenges, either overt or covert, but he'd never complain. Quite frankly, the chairman of the department at the time was Dr. Roy Parker, and he was certainly very interested in increasing diversity and inclusion in the department. So once everyone knew that Dr. Parker had endorsed Dr. Moore and invited him to be there as a fellow that calmed down a lot of opposition that he would have had at least overtly. So no, he never complained. I think he felt he came there for a mission. His mission was to give good women's health care, especially give women's health care to those who were maybe underserved, unfortunate, and primarily the African American community. So he felt that that was his goal and his goal is not to fight a fight, but to work a work. So that's what he did. GH 9:39 And can you describe a little bit more about, his motivation for giving underserved minority women better healthcare, and how he achieved that at Duke Health? BW 9:56 You never get in someone's head. But the motivation was [that] he was African American and, as most African Americans are, we certainly want to make sure that we take care of patients that look like us that may have been overlooked in the past. When he came in, there was a hospital across town, Lincoln Hospital, primarily serving the black community, but never really had a great leader just for women's health care. He felt that he could fill that void and became the chief of OB and set up significant clinics just for that particular purpose. Also, [starting] a private practice, so a lot of the African American women in the community [were] glad to see an African American physician. They felt that he would understand a little more [of] their needs and be more caring. And so, he was just a giving person. In terms of his willingness to teach, if students [didn't] know what [they] were doing, [attendings] could certainly get things done a lot quicker without us being around. [He was] very patient and allowed us to [be] probably a lot more hands-on than some of the other physicians did to make sure that we would get the proper training and skills necessary to be successful once we left the medical center. GH 11:40 And you said that he established some clinics, did you ever work at any of those with him? BW 11:48 Yes, yes, as a medical student and as a resident. We would go over there to do certain clinics [on] certain days of the week, and then we would initially see the patient, and he would be our attending. We would present the patient to him and tell him what we thought we should do. And he would very kindly tell us, we were often on the wrong track, quite often, but so yeah, I did that. It was a kind of amazing kind of watching how the patients just revered him because he would talk with them at their level, and they trusted him implicitly. I would say, especially little old ladies, they just looked up at him like he might have been God with a halo around his head. So, he was just very charismatic and just got along with patients and their families [in a way] that put them all at ease. Even when he had to give them bad news, it was given them a very compassionate way where they felt that if anything could be done, he would make sure it [was] done. And so that was one of the things that certainly he brought to the community and got it organized and really got Duke behind him. By allowing his students and residents to go over there to assist him in those clinics and to assist him in his surgeries. GH 13:30 So, the clinics, they're separate from Duke, those are the clinics he established privately you would say? BW 13:39 Well, they weren't privately they were part of the hospital in Lincoln was not part of Duke Hospital. GH 13:45 Okay, they are for Lincoln Hospital, the clinics. BW 13:48 Yeah, the Lincoln Hospital was set up at the turn of the century, in the early 1900s, by Washington Duke, who felt they should be a special place for the African Americans and Blacks that were not being served at Duke. Duke primarily then was very segregated. Then they had another hospital in town called Watts. And Watts did see some Blacks. So, the Duke Family, [who] established the Duke Hospital and the university, felt an obligation to make sure that there was a specific place where these patients could be taken care of, in a fashion that other patients were being taken care of. So, the hospital was there before he got there, just was not organized as well in terms of different specialties specifically for women's health care. And he was instrumental in putting that program together and making sure that it thrived. GH 14:56 Duke Medical Students went to Lincoln Hospital Clinics, right? So, you could say that Dr. Moore was kind of linking Duke to the black community in a way? BW 15:17 Yeah, I certainly think that certainly was a direct link because he was on the faculty at Duke, as well as the chief of OB at Lincoln. So he was instrumental [in] tying the two together in a more formal way. So, I'd say that it was certainly part of the full integration, if you will, of the black community into the Duke Health System. GH 15:49 Can you describe a little bit more about Dr. Moore's relationship with the community or with Lincoln Hospital? Did you ever see that side of him or work with him a lot in that environment? BW 16:09 Well, not directly, obviously, my relationship with him in that capacity was more clinical than administrative, but certainly in the community he was revered. He was able to make sure that Lincoln got the resources that it needed. Some of the resources had to come from [outside] the black community because the black community quite often didn't have the resources, but he was able to get the resources from something built by some other private enterprises to make sure that the Lincoln Health Center and the [Lincoln] Hospital had what they needed to deliver excellent health care to the patients that were there. GH 17:10 So a little bit earlier, you were kind of talking about how Dr. Moore invited you over to his house you and the other students over to his house and explained to you guys the values and what you guys should achieve and strive to be doing. Are there any other specific instances like this that you remember about him? BW 17:45 Well, I mean, I think the other thing too, is you have to remember that he had a family. He had three children, Karen, Robin, and Don Jr., and watching him have the work balance with his family was important. His daughter, Karen ended up going to medical school at Duke and is now a pediatrician down in Atlanta, and his other two children are professionals in different places. So, it was interesting to watch him have a family at the time I was unmarried. So I didn't know. You know, how would you do that? We had a couple of medical students who were married in medical school. I don't know how they did it, but they did it and they made it through so, you learned these things of life [by] just kind of watching him do that outside of the clinical practice, how he was a family man, and how he loved his family. He certainly supported his children. And certainly, I tried to do the same thing with my two children. GH 19:04 Once you were out of medical school, did you continue to talk to Dr. Moore? Did you guys still have that relationship? BW 19:15 When I finished my residency at Duke in OB-GYN, I went [into] private practice down in Fayetteville, North Carolina. So to start [my] practice and even before I went into practice, I spent a lot of time with Dr. Moore to understand the things I need to look out for in terms of being in practice. [I was] making sure that I had the I's dotted and T's crossed to make sure that I set the practice up properly. And you know, understanding insurance business, understanding [the] business [by] watching how he did his scheduling and how he staffed his office. Because in medical school and residency, you don't get that kind of training, especially [at] Duke. Duke was primarily, a research-oriented facility at that time. In their minds, everybody that graduated, the residents, should probably go do a fellowship somewhere in something. And private practice was kind of certainly not looked down on but was not emphasized. And [we] really didn't have any models or mentors out there to teach us how to really go into your private practice. And so certainly, he was very helpful there. And once I got started, I'd call him and he'd tell me, well, this situation, I would do this and do that. So, he was very helpful. I left Duke in 1981. And he said, Stay with practice [inaudible]. And we stayed in contact, and I'd come back to Durham to, you know, really spend the afternoon with him and his wife, Barbara, and just really fellowship quite a bit. By that time, I was married and introduced my wife to them, the family, and it was certainly a good relationship. GH 21:17 I think it's interesting because I feel like a lot of information about Dr. Moore talks a lot about his advocacy for reproductive health and women's health. But you're talking about his advocacy for pushing Black Excellence. And this has been an interesting perspective to look at. Are there other instances where he was pushing black students to achieve greatness that you can remember? BW 21:54 Well, I mean, I wasn't unique in terms of my relationship with Dr. Moore I was an OB-GYN, and I was the only black student in my class that went into OB-GYN. I've probably had more direct contact with him than they did. But certainly, they sought his counsel in medicine and life. But some of the times I was there, there [were] some other students. Those who stayed at Duke to do their residency certainly kept in contact with him because there were not a lot of black physicians in Durham at the time. He had Dr. [Charles] Watts there in general surgery and Dr. Cleveland, in pediatrics, but so they were kind of, not a lot of them. So those who were there, we certainly sought them out to gain some wisdom from them and to understand kind of how they were able to survive and be successful in the environment, and the lessons learned, so you won't have to learn them over again. So, I will say that he was certainly available and very easy to talk to. He made time for you if you wanted to do some things [like] talk offline. He never complained. His wife never complained about us barging in on their time. And so, it was a very kind of a cordial type environment. And, quite frankly, she was wonderful. She cooked dinner for us. When you're used to eating chicken noodle soup every night, get[ting] a nice, good meal was a special thing. So, she would invite us over for dinner and the Super Bowl or whatever, they'd invite us over. And so that was a special time for us. And did things they didn't have to do, but they wanted to do it and certainly was appreciated. GH 24:06 Did any of the white attendings or physicians during that time say anything about this? Or how do you think they viewed Dr. Moore? How do you think they viewed Dr. Moore during this time? BW 24:29 Well, I think they were very much intrigued by Dr. Moore because he was as good and better than most of them in terms of his surgical skills and his knowledge of anatomy and that. So they didn't show any signs of at least to me that they were envious or felt that he was less than. Quite frankly, a lot of the white residents really enjoyed working with Dr. Moore because like I said before, he would allow us to, with supervision, do a lot more than we were able to do some of the other physicians. When in residency, you want to see one, do one, teach one. So, he certainly believed that. And so the rotation that we had a two-month rotation over at Durham Regional, once Lincoln Hospital closed and [Durham] Regional opened. Dr. Moore was working there and so we worked with him and all his patients that he [would] bring in, we would work them up and operate with him. And that was kind of the highlight of our rotations during the year to go and work with him because he's just such a delight, and so skillful and he easily passed on knowledge and wisdom that he'd gained over the years. And so not only the black students, but all the students, I would say all residents, I would say would be very fond of him to come in. [As a] matter of fact, they have a Don Moore Lecture Series [which] is done every year. You can see the love that they have for him and for what he did for the program and what he did for women's health and Durham. GH 26:33 So, you said that Dr. Moore gave you more of like a hands-on learning experience than other physicians or your attendings during that time. Is there anything else that you did differently than these various physicians or attendings that you think helped, I guess, like, contribute to your medical school journey during this time? BW 27:04 Well, as you know, in training, there [are] different ways of practicing medicine. There's the Duke way, the Harvard way and the Hopkins way. Dr. Moore brought his way of doing things. And it was interesting to see, for example, in OB, he'd be in his office and [the] patient would be in labor. And after he'd finish in his office, he'd come over and we'd say, the lady's five centimeters, 10 being the ultimate. And he said, “I'll be over in a minute and get her delivered in about two or three hours.” Well, traditionally, would it take us five hours to get the patient delivered safely, he'd come over, stand by the bedside, rub the tummy, turn the Pitocin up, watch it, turn it down, watch it, turn it up, watch it, out comes the baby. And we [would] still [be] fumbling in the next room, [with the] same kind of patient, delivering three hours later. We had a tremendous ability to do those kinds of things that we hadn't seen before. And so you learned different ways to do things. And you learned that you don't want to get caught up in groupthink as you can, in a certain environment. So [that’s] why I encouraged other students to go to another medical center for two months, three months, just [to] see how people do things differently. [Doesn’t] mean [they’re doing] it wrong. You can pick up different things. And so, for me, that was good, because obviously, I was in solo practice. I had the same office seeing patients in an operating room and again, ladies in labor, so I had to know how to manage those things very efficiently, but you know, safely. And I watched him do it. I said, “I think I could do that too.” And so I incorporated some of that into my daily practice. GH 29:12 Wow, it seems he really made a lasting impact on your life. I can tell by the way you're talking that. Like, I don't know how to explain it. There's like a sort of reverence [and] you still look up to him. [crosstalk] BW 29:34 Oh I do. He was one of a kind. He just died too soon, and I still speak with his daughter in Georgia, at least two or three times a year and we stayed in contact and so we talk about her dad. He was sorely missed when he died. We had Charles Harris, who was I think a year behind me in residency. [He] decided to stay there and kind of pick up the slack once his practice left. He and Dr. Smith joined together, Harris and Smith, and they kind of picked up primarily African Americans, but certainly, they are getting more patients in as African Americans. At the time, there was only one big practice in town OB-GYN that was Dr. Moore. And so, yeah, he was quite a guy. And he's very dapper, real clean around town. [He drove a] sports Mercedes with top back and as a young man seeing all that, your eyes get big. [You think] when I can do it one day. [This] certainly had a tremendous impact on me and a lot of people. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in the community at large or at Duke to say that anything in terms of his work, dedication, his compassion for the patients, was second to none. I don't think you'll find that anywhere. He worked hard when he could and when his health failed that was it. I think he died at probably less than 60 years old. He worked hard and brought a lot of good things to the community. He really helped establish Lincoln, and I know Lincoln is still there now, just as a clinic. But he certainly was a pioneer and doing the things that kind of get built on a good foundation. GH 32:19 I know that you said you had a personal relationship with him. Do you know if he did anything else within the community for women's health? BW 32:42 I don't know, I mean, I didn't have the time. You know, as a student resident, you're not necessarily the social circles in the community, you got your head down, your butt up, [and] you're working hard. So you know, it's all hands on deck. But I'm sure he probably belonged to some of the organizations in a community and you know, as most of you did, but I can't speak to that too much. GH 33:08 And other than the fellowship that you talked about, the lecture series that you talked about, how do you think that Dr. Moore's legacy is still out there and still being? How do you think Dr. Moore's legacy is still out there and still continuing to last? BW 33:57 They're some of the residents that came after me that was there from [when] Dr. Moore was there. We have annual meetings of the Duke residents and faculty, his name was always you know, raised and propagated. I think that the lecture series will be good simply because as we age out, you get older and then someone's gonna die out soon and you got more yesterdays than tomorrows. We recognize that, so I think that. Dr. Parker is no longer there and a lot of fellow faculty [members] that [were] there he was dealing with pretty much all gone. So, it remains up to the newer ones, and the new chairman, Dr. Barbara, and others have recognized that he was very important to the department and that they will continue to make sure that people know about him when he did what he stood for. And to make sure that the future people will know, Dr. Donald T. Moore, who he was, what he did, and what a significant impact he had on the community. And so, there'll be another Dr. Moore different name, different place, different generation, that certainly I hope will make as much of an impact as he did, maybe in a different way. But just hope and pray that someone else comes along. Like a Dr. Holland, or something like that? Yeah, can certainly make a big impact on the community. GH 35:57 Wow. All right. So as we're sort of winding down to around the last 10-15 minutes. Is there anything that we haven't spoken about that you would like to add or mention? BW 36:15 No, I think it's very, very, very wonderful that you guys are doing what you're doing. To archive these kinds of things. Because I think that helps continue this legacy of people [who] made a big difference that you may not know about generations to come in and know about. And if you don't know, your history may repeat it. So, I think it's important that you keep doing what you're doing. And understand that there have been those who braved the trails before you to open and make yours a little easier. But there always will be trails to be blazed. And you have to figure out how to do it. Do it in a way that he did it [inaudible], humbly, and with excellence, and then you'll have a legacy that we'll be talking about you 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now. GH 37:10 Yeah, I think this project has shown me a lot about well, specifically with Dr. Moore, it's taught me a lot about the Durham black community. Because before I had taken one class, and we had gone to the cemetery, the black cemetery here. But other than that, we never really talked about any influential black figures in the Durham and Duke community. So, I think it's given me a lot of perspective, and it just helps me appreciate the position that I'm in today. So, yeah, I think it's been really interesting to learn about this stuff. BW 38:08 Yeah. GH 38:09 I think we talked a lot about Dr. Donald Moore, and I think that you were able to give us not only his professional advocacy and reproductive health, but you were also able to give us [the] perspective, and advocacy that he had for black students. I think that's going to be able to represent him as a really good individual [and] show different sides to him that haven't been explored before. So, I just want to thank you for telling us this and sharing your stories with him. BW 39:06 It's been my pleasure and hopefully, it's been helpful and will contribute to your project. GH 39:13 So, yeah, after the interview, I'll be sure to send you the consent form. But we have a few closing things that we have to do. So, I just need you to give a production-style introduction. So for instance, I would say my name is Gemma Holland. And I'm currently a Duke undergrad. BW 39:46 [crosstalk] I'll introduce myself? GH 39:50 Yeah. BW 39:51 Okay. My name is Dr. Bertram Walls. I am a graduate of the Duke Medical School in 1976. I graduated from the Department of OB-GYN in 1981. And a graduate of the Duke Fuqua Business School in 1994. I have certainly been involved with a lot of businesses, healthcare-related and private practice. For the last 20,25, 30 years, I've been working in the business of medicine, managing practices, learning large, medical companies, and doing strategic planning and those type of things. Certainly, handed the advantage of being at Duke during the time where things were changing for the better. There was more diversity, equity, and inclusion during that time. I know there's a lot of pushback now on that. But I certainly felt that it gave me an opportunity to participate at a high level and to learn things that otherwise would not been able to learn or to experience those things. So, I do appreciate the time being here with you today. GH 41:18 And then lastly, we just need about 10 seconds of silence. [pause] Okay, I feel like that was 10 seconds. [laughter] I just want to thank you again for your time and meeting with us today. And thank you so much and have a good rest of your day. BW 41:49 Okay, thank you. GH 41:51 Bye. GH 41:53 Take good care. Bye bye.
Topic Log
00:01 Introduction 00:31 Connection to Dr. Donald T. Moore; Dr. Moore's family background 02:11 Dr. Moore's childhood memories and moving to Durham 03:12 Growing up in Durham during segregation; community involvement 06:46 Recollection of a lady bringing pies to Dr. Moore's father in exchange for surgery 09:01 Dr. Moore's father's involvement in community health services, including at Lincoln Hospital 11:43 Collaboration with other hospitals and community health organizations 13:45 Impact of Dr. Moore's father on her career choice despite initial reluctance 17:31 Awareness of adversity faced by her father as the first black fellow at Duke University, Duke Med 22:22 Discussion of racial dynamics in Durham and Dr. Moore's father's decision to move to Durham 30:40 Reflection on Dr. Moore's father's demeanor and legacy as a physician 33:20 Impact of Dr. Moore's father on Duke Med and the OB-GYN department 35:41 Potential advice Dr. Moore's father would give to aspiring young physicians 39:16 Emphasis on Dr. Moore's father's approach to patient care and legacy regarding community health centers 41:45 Conclusion of the interview with appreciation for gaining insights into Dr. Moore's father from both perspectives
Full Transcript
Gemma Holland 0:01 My name is Gemma Holland. The date is March 17, 2024. I'm interviewing Dr. Karen Moore for the Agents of Change Oral History Project. Dr. Moore to get started we should kind of contextualize who you are, and your connection to Dr. Donald T. Moore. Karen Moore 0:31 Well, he was my father that makes it easy, doesn't it? I'm the oldest of three children. GH 0:44 And can you describe what your father was like growing up? KM 0:50 My father was very stern. He never said anything or did anything as far as we were concerned and there was not a lesson to be taught in it. He worked a lot, so we didn't see him as much as we would have liked to. But I mean, he was a good man. And his obligation as many men of his era was to take care of his family [and] provide for his family. He did an excellent job of that. He was very quiet when it came to his work and what he did. We weren't privy to a lot of what he was going through as a medical professional, especially at Duke, he and my mother pretty much kept that to themselves. I will say he was a strict disciplinarian, and he was very stern. He always had a lesson for you. GH 2:11 I believe that you told me when we first had a phone call that you were a bit older when you guys moved to Durham, can you describe what that was like for you? KM 2:24 I moved to Durham. I was six or seven, so I wasn't that old. My brother was a year younger than me, and my sister wasn't born until 1969. So no, I was still a little girl when we moved there. We had come from Detroit, so, I do have memories of that. But Durham is really all that I knew anything about growing up, and we loved it. We loved growing up in North Carolina. GH 3:12 Can you describe what it was like growing up in Durham during that time? KM 3:21 I really don't understand the question. As a black person? GH 3:28 Not necessarily just like, what was your childhood like in Durham? Was there a lot of community? What were you guys involved with? Were you involved with [a] church [in the] community, [your] high school? KM 3:45 Well, growing up in Durham was wonderful. We grew up basically in total segregation. We absolutely had no reason [at] any moment to visit the white side of town. We had everything that we needed. On our side of town, we had [a] hospital, we had doctors, we had lawyers, we had cleaners, [and] we had pharmacists. And so, we were very much cocooned in that community. Yes, my mother was much more involved in the community. When it came to clubs like the Links and Smart Set and of course, she had us in Jack and Jill and the Girl Scouts. At first, we were not allowed in the Girl Scouts, so she and a group of her friends formed our own troop. And then of course th[e] church community was huge. My mother was Catholic. I went to Immaculata, which was a Catholic school there, but we had we had the Holy Cross which was the black Catholic church there which we attended. My father attended St. Joseph's AME Church, which was in Hayti, which years later moved to Fayetteville Street. So, it was absolutely wonderful. We had a very close-knit community. Everyone knew everyone from the [poorest] of the black community to the wealthiest. Everyone was a part of each other's lives, and it saddens me now because you don't see that as much. I'm just, you know, just talking on [a] side note when I grew up because everyone lived within the same communities. We knew everyone and black children don't get that experience I don't think anymore. For instance, when I went to school, one of the janitors happened to be a deacon in our church, [at] St. Joseph's. So, respect was always there, no matter what level of education you had or what you did professionally. We didn't discriminate against each other. And I think that we lack that a lot now in our community. GH 6:45 Oh, you can go ahead. KM 6:46 I didn't have anything to add to that. GH 6:52 I remember that. During our first talk, you mentioned a lady [who] would bring pies to your father. Can you retell this story? KM 7:05 I reached out to my uncle because I couldn’t remember her name. He said he was going to text me back because he had to think about it [since] he's 90, but he didn't text me back. But there was a[n] older lady in our community, and she couldn't afford [the] surgery that she needed. Of course, I don't know what surgery that was, but she needed it. So, my father made the decision, and he did that a lot, to do the surgery at no charge. The barter there was that she was a baker. So, he just asked her to bring him lemon meringue pie or lemon chess pie, for every birthday, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. And that's what she did. In fact, she brought those pies to his repass. My brothers saw someone bringing her to the house and getting her out [of] the car. He was like, I can't remember her name. But he was like, "Did anybody tell Miss. So and so that daddy died?" But she knew, of course, that he had died, [and] she still brought those pies. [Since] that was her payment for him having done the surgery for her at no charge. But he did that a lot. There were a lot of times when people couldn't pay, whether it was in private practice, or if he had to slip them in when Lincoln Hospital was still up and running. He did a lot of his services for free if you needed [them]. GH 9:01 I know your father worked in the clinics. Did he do any other community-wide health services? Or do you know if the clinics were just the only thing he kind of focused on? KM 9:19 What clinics are you referring to? Are you referring to Lincoln? So, first of all, you have to understand the history of Lincoln. Lincoln Hospital was established in 1901. In 1970/71, the competition came from the other hospitals because President Johnson had earlier in the late 60s said you have to integrate and desegregate the hospitals. The white hospitals ha[d] to let the Blacks in and vice versa, or he was going to withdraw federal funding from the hospitals. So, with that happening, Lincoln lost a lot of its patient base because some of the patients started going to Watts and some of them started going to Duke. So, Lincoln could not stand alone, and it closed finally, and I think I was going to college, so maybe 1976. Then they had a no— I can't remember, don't quote me on a date, you can look it up. They closed completely then Lincoln Community Health Center was established. So, prior to that, my father was on staff at Lincoln Hospital. And then once it was closed and the community center [opened and] a lot of the physicians, black physicians had their offices in that building. Some, like my father, ventured out and got their own practice. So yes, he worked very heavily at Lincoln, in two different genres when it was a hospital, and then as it was a community [health] center. GH 11:43 Did he happen to collaborate with any other community health organizations? KM 11:53 Well, there really were not any. You had Duke, you had Watts, and you had Lincoln Hospital, my father was on staff at all of them, which made it extraordinary for the time. Then, once they built Durham County Hospital because they had to do something that continued to get that funding. And instead of trying to keep Lincoln or Watts open, they decided to build this new hospital, which would be totally integrated. So, he had privileges and all of these hospitals. So, I guess that would answer your question. He had to reach out to every [hospital] regardless of who they were serving at the time. He did once in a while early on go out into the rural areas of North Carolina. But as he got busier and busier in his practice, and then with Lincoln, he wasn't able to do that anymore. GH 13:16 I'm going to kind of shift gears a bit since we contextualize[d] Durham during that time [and] what your father was doing. I know that you're also a physician. Do you think that your father had an impact on you choosing that career path? KM 13:45 No, he really did not want me to go into medicine [laughter]. I was good at it, and it was the only thing that kept me interested in school because I did not like school. And that was a bit that was a struggle on a personal note between my parents and [me]. So, I wanted to do all kinds of different things. My father's brother was [a] physician. My grandfather was a dentist. I had several cousins [who] were physicians, and I knew that I was good at that. But he was not happy early on and definitely didn't want me to go into an OB-GYN [which] was absolutely a no, [and] I had no desire to do that. So that was a hard sell for me. My mother wanted me to come home and she wanted me to go into OB because she wanted me to come home and take over my father's practice. My father was like absolutely no[t], you will not be nine months pregnant and roll out of bed to go deliver somebody else's baby. He said, "You need to be home. So, you need to pick a specialty where you don't have to do that." Well, I came along at a time when you still had to get out of bed in the middle of the night to go to the hospital because there were no hospitalists at the time when I was training or when I started my practice. He was proud and he was happy for me. One of the few times I ever saw him cry [was] when I graduated from medical school because I don't think he thought I could do it [laughter]. I, unlike my brother who made a perfect score on his SAT, had to study and concentrate. Now I know, which I didn't know back then, that I have attention deficit [and] there were no medicines for that. So, I had to really sit there in a hardback chair. I had to have a schedule and I had to study a little bit longer than most. So, I don't think he wanted that for me. But he did not live to see that I succee[ded] in it. So that's sad because he didn't live to see that. GH 16:43 Once you were older, you said that your parents didn't talk to you and your siblings about what was going on with your father as he was a physician during that time, but once you were older did your mother, father, or maybe even other family members, tell you about any adversity that he might have faced being first black fellow at Duke University/Duke Med? KM 17:31 Well, when you grew up in the era that I grew up in, my brother grew up in, and then anybody even came before us. I see that more now than I did back then. We were aware of not so much they didn't name names, [they'd be like], so and so said this or so and so said that. But yes, we were very much aware because as black children, you have to know what you're up against. You have to understand [that] we were always taught [that] you have to take five extra steps, or you'd have to take 10 extra steps. Something else that I don't think we teach our children now. I think that within the black community as a whole now the kids are taught that, okay, we live in I live we live in these neighborhoods where they're integrated. We go to integrated schools, and so everything's okay. I think for you as young people when something happens, let's just say George Floyd, you're in shock, that was not shocking for me. We watched this happen all the time as we grew up, and our parents did not shield it from us. We grew up in an all-black neighborhood called Emory Woods. A white man named Mr. Herdon had all this land, and he built these large homes for black middle-class families. He was smart, but the [Ku Klux] Klan loved to march [through] that neighborhood. Mr. Herdon and got to know the families, so if he knew that the Klan was marching on our neighborhood, we had a phone tree. So, the first house in the neighborhood was called and then you called everybody else, and all my father had to do was say that was Mr. Herndon on the phone and all blinds got close. We got in the bed with our parents, and the whole neighborhood went dark. So that meant we [were] waiting for the Klan. They would come periodically, just to try to scare us, but we weren't scared. In that moment, my father and my mother would continue to talk to us about who we were and where we came from. And that these Klansmen just were trying to intimidate us. So, we were always fully aware of our community and how insulated we were. They didn't try to hide that, and they kn[ew] they had their own prejudice. I mean, my mother, she was always very welcoming, and anyone was welcom[e] in our home. But there was just this something about it that she never talked about. Finally, one day I asked my grandmother, and [she] told me that when my mom was 10 in 1947, one of her little friends didn't come to school one day. So, she and her other friends went looking for him, and he was hanging from a tree. My mother never talked about it, but when she got Alzheimer's, it was right there every day. My grandmother told us that my mother never talked about it. So, I think some things that happened to them in their youth, they kept to themselves, but they never shielded us from anything where that was concerned. GH 22:22 I know that was [more] about the community. Did they ever mention anything about Duke, Duke Med, or Duke University in that sense? KM 22:44 No, not really. My even for my father. He was when he made the decision to come to Durham it basically was built upon the fact that Dr. Leroy Swift who was the OB-GYN at the time, was leaving. He was leaving Durham. My father had gone to Palmer [Memorial Institute]. I don't know if you know what Palmer is. Do you know what Palmer was? GH 23:11 I'm not sure I've ever heard of it KM 23:15 I'll give you a history lesson. You don't have to put it into video. Palmer Institute was started by Charlotte Hawkins Brown. It was in Sedalia, North Carolina. It was a private boarding school for black children. So, my father attended Palmer, and he finished in 1950. So, he was familiar with North Carolina. Watts, Charles Watts, and I'm sure you've heard his name. Now can you hear me? Gemma? Gemma? GH 24:10 Sorry. I'm sorry, the audio cut out for a little bit on my side. KM 24:15 So, I don't know where I was. I was giving you a history lesson. So, there was a black boarding school, and it was mostly for upper-middle-class black children. My father attended that boarding school. So, he went to school with H. Michaux. Henry [“Mickey”] Michaux was a state senator, [who] retired from North Carolina, [and he] was from Durham. So, my father when they were trying to recruit him to Durham and Dr. Watts was a huge part of that Charles Watts. I don't know if you know anything about him, but he was instrumental in getting the Lincoln Community Health [established], and he was a surgeon. He actually was in the car with Chuck, Dr. Charles Drew, when he was killed. He recruited my father and then Dr. Parker, Roy Parker, truly embraced my father and our family. So, the decision was made to move to Durham. I witnessed as a medical student some of those problems at Duke from the standpoint of what my father must have gone through early on. But I think as far as his personal friends or the other physicians that do, namely Dr. Parker, he didn't have that problem. I do remember once that Dr. Parker called and told my father that the Klan was passing out flyers near Northgate Mall and told my father to take a different route to the hospital that day. When I was in medical school is when I first started to question what he could possibly have gone through, even though, I don't think that Duke [and the physicians there] ever treated him with anything but respect ever. First of all, he demanded it. He carried himself with respect, and he was an excellent surgeon. So, I don't think that they ever questioned his medicine. I remember him telling me when he first started operating, you know, they had those operating theatres where you could watch. He said that he always drew a crowd until they realized that he was good at what he did or excellent really at what he did. He was very quick and precise as a surgeon. It made it very difficult for a lot of times to have that for the other surgeons in the room to keep up with him. But when I was in medical school, it was maybe 1982/83. He woke me one night, and he told me he had a case. He asked me if I wanted to scrub in on it. Of course, I didn't want to go it was the middle of the night but I kn[ew] I couldn't say no. So, I get up and go to the hospital with him. He's trying to tell this woman who's basically bleeding out in the ER, he introduced himself. I was standing right there. He told her who he was [and] what he needed to do. He had been called in to do that surgery because they knew that he could do it, whatever she needed. I don't remember because he wasn't on call. And I went and looked at my father and [the patient] said, "I don't want no niggas touching me.” So, my father turns around and looks at me and he says, "Who the hell is she talking to?" I said, "She's talking to you because I'm Puerto Rican today." One of the nurses had said something about the little Puerto Rican medical student had done something in the room. She was talking about me. And so, I said, "Well no Daddy, she's talking to you because I'm Puerto Rican today." And my father said, "That's fine." He walked out, and the look on his face carried me through medical school residency because he just put his head up and walked right out that door. And I said, "Dad, what are you doing? We're not doing the surgery." He said, "I will not be doing it. I work too hard to be disrespected like this." So, we got home, [and] my mother was cooking breakfast [at about] five o'clock in the morning. She was like, Oh, that was quick, and I said, "Yes, the patient called him a nigger." My mother said, "Well, so sorry for her." So, he actually had to walk, whoever ended up doing the surgery, over the phone because he said he wasn't operating on her. Now I experienced that as a medical student. Then I had to same thing happen to me as a resident. So, it's always there. I think it is how you carry yourself, how you read the room, and how you command the room. So that's one of the stories that I do really remember because I was an adult. So, I don't know, all the other ones. I don't know, because they weren't going to come to me [when I was] 10 and tell me that. GH 30:40 Yeah, a couple of weeks ago, we talked with Dr. Bertram ["Bert"] Walls. He kind of gave us insight [in]to what your father was like while he was there. He kind of said the same thing that you're saying to us now about how he just held himself [at such a high standard and in a way where] everyone looked up to him and saw him in this spotlight. And that he carried himself with such high dignity. KM 31:14 He did, and I think that came from his upbringing. His father was the same and his grandfather, too. I think it was just in him. Bert is a very dear friend of ours, and he was a resident. I think that one of my father's biggest legacies is [that] he loved to teach. He embraced every single student; it didn't matter what color you were student or resident. He was determined [that] when you walked away from him, in that moment you had learned everything that you possibly could. But there is the discipline and this endless respect, and he commanded it. I saw that all the time. So, I don't know. I don't know all the stories, and nobody really talked. They I'm sure they talked together whether it was [with] Bert because Bert was always at our house. Oh, that's one thing that my father made sure that they were fed that if something was wrong or hip, someone had said something to them that wasn't kind that he could handle it. He didn't leave any of them. James Bennett was at our house all the time. He's a urologist here in Atlanta now, but I remember Bert the most, and then I can't think of her name but she's in Greensboro. You all probably have talked to her. I can't think of her name, but Bert would know. GH 33:20 Continuing on [with] the theme of your father's legacy, what impact do you think that his legacy has had on Duke Med [or] the OB-GYN department at the hospital here? KM 33:47 I don't really understand. I don't know how to answer that because I think that would be a question for the Department of OB-GYN, don't you? Of course, I think that they held him in such self-esteem, and he has an endowment there and that was very important. I can't really speak on how he impacted that. If he did anything, he was like, hey, there's a whole community on the other side of town that needs help see us, help us. He pulled a lot of physicians over the Lincoln from Duke to help with the black community. I think, because of his skills, and the way he carried himself, he was able to make that happen, maybe in a time where it wouldn't have been possible. But I really think that might be a question for them. No, but obviously, it was a huge impact because they decided that he deserved a chair. GH 35:24 If your father [were] still alive today, what advice do you think he would give to aspiring young physicians today? KM 35:41 I think it would be the same advice he would have given to them 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, it's the same. It's the same advice that he gave to me, which I must say, I don't see anymore. So, I think the advice will be the same [that] you have to meet your patients where they are. You can't have [what] he used to call a "white coat syndrome." You put that white coat on and all of a sudden you feel empowered, and you feel you can spew all these big words out of your mouth, and no one can understand that. No patient should leave your office, be it your office, my office, [or] my father's office, and not understand what is wrong with them, in my case, what's wrong with their child. That was always his way you have to meet your patients where they are, you have to be acceptable, and the poor side of town, and you should also be able to walk into the White House and discuss whatever the needs [for] your community [are]. I think outside of his skills as a physician, that was the most important thing to him. He would tell me all the time: "Don't have the white coat syndrome." Take it off, sit there look your patient in the eye, and always be able to communicate with them. When it came to his patients, he was quiet at home a lot of times [and] he was tired, but he was a great communicator. If you didn't understand what was happening with you or what was happening to your body, and you called into our house. Before there was all this fancy technology, we started with one phone in our house, and you [could] only be on the phone for 10 minutes because the patients call[ed] directly into the house. When we had two phone lines, we had to answer the phone, take a message, and give it to him. If you didn't understand what was going on, he went to your house. He sat down with you, and he talked to you. If you were scared about your surgery, he came to your house. And he sat down, and he talked to you. My father stopped doing OB when the HMOs [Health Maintenance Organizations] came down the pipe. He was not going to have the insurance companies telling him what he could and could not do for his patients. GH 38:45 I think a lot of the dialogue that we've heard about your father was that he made the patients feel very comfortable and always made sure that they [understood] what they were getting into. So, as we wrap up, like the end of our interview, is there anything else that you think that we may have missed or that we haven't touched upon that you would like to mention? KM 39:16 I would like to say just going back a little bit. I think a part of his legacy also was the fact that he was very adamant about Lincoln. Once the hospital closed, for him and Dr. Charles Watts, it was making sure that the black community could still get the care they needed. That's one reason that he worked tirelessly to make sure that a community health center could be opened. What we are starting to think about now is, so the hospital closes, how are people [who] can't afford to get to Duke or Durham County, how are they going to get the healthcare they need when it's not right there in their community? Of course, we don't think about that anymore, because you jump in your car, but during that time people, especially black people, were still taking buses [or] they were having to rely on a relative to stop and take the time to take them wherever they needed to be. So, I think one of the biggest things that he did was to make sure that Lincoln Community Health Center got off the ground and running so that we could keep that phenomenal [care from] the physicians that we had inside of our community. I think that's important, and it needs to be said because I do remember that. There [were] a lot of long nights [where] he'd leave his office, [and] he would go to all these meetings to figure out a way to get that off the ground with the other black physicians in town. I can't think of anything else. But that was very, very important to him. GH 41:45 I think that with our conversation today, we covered a lot that [wasn't spoken about before], with our talk with Dr. Walls he gave us insight into what your father was like in the medical space. Whereas with you, you gave us insight [in]to like, who he was like as a person and as a community member. So having both of these perspectives, we're able to get a holistic view of who your father was. So, I just want to say thank you so much for that today. We just have a few closing interview things that we have to do. So, we just need a production-style introduction of yourself. So, for instance, I would say my name is Gemma Holland, and I'm currently an undergrad student at Duke University. KM 42:45 Okay. So, you want me to say my name is Karen Moore? I am the eldest daughter of Dr. Donald T. Moore. I am a practicing pediatrician in Atlanta, Georgia. I attended Duke University School of Medicine, graduate [of] 1984. GH 43:07 Then we just need about 15 seconds of just like the room tone, so just silence. Okay, that seems like enough. After the interview, Dr. Moore called me and explained that she would like the following excerpt included in the interview: When I lost my first patient, I called my father crying. He told me, “Call back when you are ready to speak one physician to another.” I think this speaks to what he was like in the professional world and the standard he would hold himself and the residents that he taught.