Anne Bradfield Tyor Interview

Abstract

Mrs. Tyor discusses coming to Duke • the dietetics program at Duke • being a relative of Dr. Deryl Hart • Elsie Martin, chief of dietetics program at Duke • the atmosphere at Duke • the Duke School of Medicine class of 1946 • Dr. Malcolm P. Tyor • closeness of class of 1946 • marriages to dieticians, student nurses, and student technicians in class of 1946 • Dr. Eugene Stead’s social events with house staff • the VA Hospital • Dr. Stead’s thriftiness • Dr. Stead testing the knowledge of others • professional courtesy of the medical profession before insurance companies’ involvement • the connectedness of the Duke network • the return of Tyors to Duke from Jacksonville, Fla., in 1955 • women not working due to having families • Jean Estes (wife of Dr. E. Harvey Estes) • having a large family • the community of Duke faculty families on Anderson Street • Dr. Walter Kempner • the diet kitchen • working as a student dietician • the kitchen in Duke Hospital North • teaching students dietetics • the creation of a male nutritionist program • entertaining as the wife of division chief • going to conferences as wife of division chief • the expectations of being a wife of a division chief • the competitive nature of wives in Duke hierarchy • the role of wives as supporters to faculty husbands • Ethel Wyngaarden • Mary Duke Biddle Trent Semans • Purple Jesus [alcoholic beverage] • the town-gown atmosphere of Durham • Dr. William Anlyan’s influence on Duke • Joseph Greenfield • and the feeling of closeness at Duke. The transcription of this interview was made possible by a grant from the Josiah Charles Trent Memorial Foundation.

Interview

Interviewee: Anne Bradfield Tyor
Interviewer: Jessica Roseberry
Date: January 31, 2006
Place: Mrs. Tyor’s home in Durham, NC

Jessica Roseberry: This is Jessica Roseberry, and I’m here with Mrs. Anne Tyor who was Anne Bradfield when she was in the school—the dietetics internship at Duke. She graduated from that program in 1946 and married Malcolm Tyor who graduated from the school of medicine in ’46, and he later went on to become the chief of Gastroenterology at Duke. This is January 31, 2006, and we’re here in her home in Durham, North Carolina. I appreciate your willingness to be interviewed today, Mrs. Tyor. If you don’t mind, if you could tell me just kind of how you heard about Duke. What brought you here?

Anne Tyor: Well, for one thing, it was one of the best programs in the southeast, and actually your dietetics degree at that time was no good unless you finished your internship. And plus the fact that I had this aunt—first cousin by marriage, to Deryl Hart here at Duke. Everyone in the family thought that I would be protected, so this was where I applied. Dr. Hart was one of the people who wrote a letter of recommendation to Mrs. Elsie [Wilson] Martin, who was the chief dietitian at Duke.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: A little redheaded lady that was as fiery as could be. (Roseberry laughs) But very intelligent. I was accepted and came; the student dietitians lived in the basement of Baker House. The student nurses lived on the other floors, and there was a connecting hallway between Baker House and Duke Hospital—that we could go. We didn’t have to go outside at night, which was good, because when we were on duty in the main kitchen, we had to appear at 5 a.m. in the morning. Also the student nurses had to go on early. We had to pass by the PDC [private diagnostic clinic] waiting room, which was just a little alcove in the corner there, that was the waiting room for Duke PDC. The parking area was two graveled lanes out in front of the PDC. It was a very small staff, naturally, at Duke, and everyone knew everyone else.

Roseberry: Now, you said you had to appear at 5:00 in the morning for duty. What were the duties?

Tyor: Well, you had to go to each place like the main kitchen. You had to observe, and they taught you what they were doing in the main kitchen. Then you were on duty in the butcher shop where they got in the meat, and you cut things up. I was so good that I thought they would never let me leave the butcher shop. (laughs) So this was what it meant that you were on duty. You would have a rotation on the pediatric ward when Miss [Mildred] Sherwood was the queen of all. I know that I was walking by in the hall one day, and Dr. [Angus] McBryde was in with a patient. He looked up at me, and he said, “Miss Bradfield, come here.” And I said, “Dr. McBryde, you know I’m not a nurse.” And Dr. McBryde said, “You have two hands, don’t you?” So that was the way everyone knew everyone else. No, no question that they knew you. Then Dean [Wilburt] Davison had this policy of having the students, medical students, out to his house in Hope Valley to play poker. He said, “Bring a friend.” (Roseberry chuckles) So my intelligent husband-to-be asked me to come along. And I did. When I arrived, they had never had a girl show up before for poker, because they played poker and they drank beer. (Roseberry laughs) And young ladies did not (laughter) drink beer then, they thought! It was one of those nights that were horrible and got worse, because when we finally told them goodbye, Mal and I walked in the coat closet. And that was that. Dean Davison was one of the ones that started Hope Valley Country Club. He was one of the few people in town then had any money to spare. He would have parties for the medical students there. But the last party they had was for the class of ’46, because they almost wrecked the place. After that, there were no more parties at Hope Valley Country Club. (laughter)

Roseberry: (laughs) A fun class.

Tyor: It was a fun class, and they were the wildest people I’d ever seen in my life. I thought that none of them would ever, ever be good physicians. But as it turned out, there were so many that were chairmen of various departments of medicine. I mean, they were fantastic men in their fields. Just amazing. But they were the party-going people! Then of course Dave Hubbell and Ralph Cottle sang in the Duke Chapel Choir. Had beautiful voices. And so they always led the singing wherever we were. They all could sing just really well. It was a fun group. (laughs) And of course many of the wives of these class of ’46 were either student nurses, student technicians, or student dietitians. One of the wives who was not, said that we were the worst clique that she had ever seen in her life. But you see, we had known each other forever. And we kept up the friendship. In fact, my guest for the Duke Medical reunion in the fall was the widow of Mal’s first roommate at Duke Medical School, Charlotte Sieber. She was a student technician here. So it really—it’s our family. And we always have just been very, very close. And even our children were close to the children of people at Duke.

Roseberry: So even people who didn’t come back and work at Duke still stayed in contact.

Tyor: Yes, we’ve been in contact with them even to this day. I can go out and call the few that are still breathing. (laughter)

Roseberry: Wonderful.

Tyor: It’s just great. Even when our children are in that area, they don’t hesitate to call. Like the son of the doctor that Mal practiced with briefly in Jacksonville, Florida. Jimmy Borland, came up to Duke to train under Mal. Now he’s back in Jacksonville, Florida. I hear from him all the time. See, it’s the Duke family! (laughs) That’s the way it goes.

Roseberry: Now, do you think other classes were as close or—?

Tyor: No; never, never as close. Our son’s class, there are just a few that he has kept up with, but it’s not been at all like the camaraderie that we had and still have with the few that are living. Bob Pinck, this classmate in Switzerland, he calls me off and on all the time. And it’s just—it was an unusual—. However, there were no cars that anyone had at that time. We all had to ride buses. The guys were going to school, and they finished in three years. That was that program, the V-12 program.

Roseberry: Uh-huh. ** Tyor**: And so we all had to do our entertainment together. And I think that’s probably one of the main things, plus the fact that Duke was so small then that we knew everyone. And everyone knew us. (laughs) So—but I don’t think they’ve ever had a class that has been that close before. And I think it was several factors that entered into it. And then of course Mal Tyor was so diligent in keeping up with people. And our house was open to anyone that came through. You know, if they had a child that was coming to Duke, then we always would see that we could take care of them. So it was just family.

Roseberry: Okay. You mentioned Dr. Hart.

Tyor: Uh-huh.

Roseberry: I wonder, did you know Dr. Hart or—?

Tyor: Well, he was my aunt by marriage’s first cousin.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: Yes, I did. Because I told you when I first came to Duke, I made the mistake of not going to see Dr. Hart.

Roseberry: Uh-oh! (laughs)

Tyor: And so I get this call from Mrs. Martin, the head dietitian, and she said, “Miss Bradfield, Dr. Hart wants you in his office, right now!” And so I said, “Yes, ma’am.” Dr. Hart’s wife, Mary, was just the sweetest love in the world. And always just a charmer. And I guess their child that I knew the best was Julia [Hart], and of course she’s not alive now either. At functions, I’d always manage to sit with them because we were always so comfortable together. But you really didn’t have time for that much socializing except when it was what we called the Stead’s command socializing (Roseberry laughs) where they would have their parties for the house staff, and you would help them as host and hostess. And what they would serve, as I told you, was the cheapest beer, chips, and dill pickles. And they’d get the pickles in the big jars, and we’d have to help. Jean Estes was telling me how (laughing) we’d cut them into thirds, ’cause they couldn’t have a whole pickle! (laughter) And we had to know everyone’s name and where they had come from, we had to help get everything set up, and we had to help clean up.

Roseberry: Now, this is when you—was this when you came back? This is when you were—.

Tyor: Yes. When we were at the VA. I told you the VA was sort of the farm for Duke medical school? Where the young people—and I took them a picture of the guys that were at the VA together. You know, Herb Sieker, Harvey Estes, Mal Tyor, you know, that bunch. And then when a slot opened at Duke, they just slid right on in. But see, at the VA we were I guess the junior house staff, maybe. I’m not sure what the term was, but we had to work. And then of course in later years when Dr. Stead had his place on the lake which they built with his family; Richard Goldner would go up, because he was Bill Stead’s best friend. We’d go up to the lake on Dr. Stead’s birthday. I’ve told you about the time that they were getting ready to go to Vanderbilt to give two million dollars? In Bill Stead’s name? And Dr. Stead called me and said, “I want to show you my new suit and shoes.” I said, “Yes, sir.” So he showed them to me, and he said, “You know I haven’t had any in twenty-five years.” I looked at him and I said, “I know you haven’t.” (laughs) They were very tight. However, he would take Evelyn anywhere and get her the most elegant outfit. And of course when he was no longer welcome at Duke for being sort of a rascal, he went on the Internet and stock market, and that’s how he made all his money. Just millions. I was telling him one day how proud I was of him. He told me, he said, “Anne, it’s not honest money.” I said, “What do you mean?” He said, “I didn’t do it by the sweat of my brow.” (laughs) So I just looked at him. Then when we went to Arizona on sabbatical, the Steads visited. And I told you that story how I’d studied everything I could see around me, because I knew that “the Fox” was going to get me. So we arrived on Camelback Road. He looks up at Camelback Mountain, and he said, “Anne, what’s the composition of Camelback Mountain?” And I said, “Dr. Stead, I knew you were going to get me. You know I don’t know that.” “Look it up.”

Roseberry: So he would do that to test you.

Tyor: Oh, he did it with everyone. Then of course one time I told you the story. He always cut through the gardens going home from the hospital. One time he went through, and we were trying to get our three, at that time, children’s picture. We only had three. It was a cold day. They were all three crying. Dr. Stead came over, and he said, “What is going on here?” And I said, “We’re taking the happy Christmas picture.” (laughter) So you know, it was just, I don’t know. It was a wonderful, wonderful place to be, I think. We’re all Dukies. We’ve even—. The in-laws that have married into our family now are Dukies. I have two daughters that graduated from Duke and of course Bill [Tyor] from medical school. Marti [Tyor], though, was born in Duke Hospital.

Roseberry: And these are your children.

Tyor: Yes, children. And then my oldest granddaughter was an honor graduate of Duke. She’s the one that’s the lawyer now and is coming this weekend. They all have to have a Duke game, you know. I have Duke tickets. And incidentally the blonde over there (points to picture of daughter that is hanging on the wall) was best friends with Vic Bubas’s daughter, Sandy. He was the basketball coach at Duke. See? It just goes on and on and on. (laughter)

Roseberry: Lots of connections.
Tyor: Well, it was, and we didn’t purposely try to say, Well, you have to have a Duke friend. Or this or that. It just happened.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: And they all did. In fact, when our children had to look something up, they always went to the Perkins Library. They didn’t think a thing about it. One of the best libraries anywhere around then. (laughing) And they just thought, Well, you know, it’s here. And so this was the wonderful advantage of Duke. One of them.

Roseberry: And you were saying that your kids had the medical care—.

Tyor: Oh, listen, it was just fantastic. It really was. Because Bill was born with a foot that was sort of crooked at first. He had to have braces. Then of course he was burned, and Dr. [Kenneth] Pickerell took charge of that. Each day he had to strip off the dead skin so that he wouldn’t be scarred. It was just that anything that was wrong, Duke was there. One thing that they had then that they don’t have now is professional courtesy. If you went to see a physician, they never charged a penny. Because that was professional courtesy. It isn’t anymore, because the guys, the poor guys are working for the insurance company. And they can’t do it. But that was what was then. And if any of the children, even when they were anywhere in the country, needed something, Mal could pick up the phone and call. And he knew exactly who to call, and with Duke University calling, it was done. So that that’s just one of the things that was so great. One of the things that’s so great. And of course I’m still living with it and enjoying it. (Roseberry chuckles) And that dinner the other night for 550 people, sit-down dinner, I was really impressed.

Roseberry: What dinner was this?

Tyor: That was the seventy-fifth birthday of Duke Medical School, and it was a real, I thought, well thought-out thing. Except they could have gone back a little bit for the oldies. I think. But everything can’t be perfect. Anything else?

Roseberry: Sure. I thought I would ask: you mentioned this a little bit before we started the tape, but just kind of to get you to tell me the story of, you know, first you were in dietetics program and then you left and then came back.

Tyor: Uh-huh.

Roseberry: When did you come back to Duke?

Tyor: We came back in 1955.

Roseberry: In ’55.

Tyor: Uh-huh.

Roseberry: Okay, and that’s when your husband—.

Tyor: Went into the VA.

Roseberry: Went into gastroenterology. Okay.

Tyor: Well, he, no, he did his gastroenterology residency at Bowman Gray.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: In Winston-Salem. In gastroenterology with Dr. Dave Care who also was a Duke connection.

Roseberry: Hmmm.

Tyor: (laughter) I mean, it just goes round and round and round. (laughter) But anyway Mal was already a gastroenterologist from the residency.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: In Winston-Salem. I skipped that part I guess in there, because that came after we got out of the service. We went to Bowman Gray residency, and then came Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And then came Jacksonville, Florida. (laughter)

Roseberry: And in Jacksonville, Florida you were telling me that Dr. Davison ran into—.

Tyor: Well, they had a big medical meeting. And Mal went down to the hotel where all these people were.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: He called Dr. Davison, and Dr. Davison said, “Tyor, come on up to the room.” And of course Dean Davison was in his skivvies shorts. (laughs) And so that’s how that evolved.

Roseberry: So he just said, “Come on back. Come on back home.”

Tyor: Well, that’s what he said. “Come on back to Duke.” And of course Mal was delighted to come back to Duke. I had mixed feelings, because Jacksonville, Florida was close to my home, and there were many people in Jacksonville, Florida that I had gone to school with. Sorority sisters and et cetera. However, I always had been taught that you followed your husband where the job was and you were willing. And one of the questions that Dr. Stead asked Mal, “Is your wife moveable?” And so Mal said, “Yes, she is.” So we came back to Durham. But I have to say that when we left Jacksonville, I cried until I couldn’t even eat. I hated to leave. But I knew this is what we needed to do, and it was the best thing we’ve ever done in our lives was to come back to Duke. Believe me.

Roseberry: So did you work at that time when you came back?

Tyor: No, I was just having babies. (laughter) And in those days it was really hard for women to get a job, because there was nowhere to stash children away. And it was just more accepted if you had more than one to stay home and take care of them. And of course my friend Jean Estes, (laughing) when I said, “Well, you know, you had one more than I did.” And she said, “Well, we just didn’t know any better.” (laughter) It was like this other friend of mine. I guess one of the OB people in town looked at—no, I don’t think he was OB. I think it was someone else at Duke that went to First Presbyterian Church. And here my friend the nurse was having all these babies: one, two, three. And he looked at her and he said, “You know,” he said, “I know you’re not Catholic because you go to my church.” He said, “What you are is a careless Presbyterian.” (laughs) I think that was Dr. [Elbert] Persons. I’m not sure. (laughs) But anyway, it was just a wonderful life. And I think that having had it grow so large, they may not still be able to keep the family feeling that we all experienced. Which has been so fantastic all through our lives, really. But it is so large now that I’m not sure that the left hand knows where the right hand is. (laughs)

Roseberry: So one group of kind of family for you was that class of ’46 and another might have been the women and maybe the husbands, too, living on Anderson Street when you came back—

Tyor: Well, actually, I was in awe of [Lucy] Landon Ruffin. Reeve Persons, all of these people, Kay [Catherine] Callaway. All of them. They were just a little bit older and more experienced, but the ones that were really the friends were Jean Estes, Dottie Sieker, Harriet McIntosh. They were my age. And I still keep up with them. Dottie Sieker is my best friend. And so this is what it evolved. But I also kept up with my sorority sisters that I had in Florida. (Roseberry laughs) And so in other words, Mal and I—Mal was an only child, and I had one brother. And we sort of treasured these friends that we were with, and we kept up with them. In other words, my Christmas list still is enormous, which I am happy to say. And I enjoy hearing from all of them. In fact, I had this one guy that’s in Augusta, Georgia wrote in his letter how much he owed to Mal Tyor in his career. And so that makes you feel good. And so I continue to hear from these people.

Roseberry: Tell me about some of those people on Anderson Street.

Tyor: Oh! Well, they were something. Bert Persons was with the Duke unit, you know; that was overseas in World War II. He had the most erect carriage of anyone. Well, just like anyone in the military. You could spot him two blocks away. Also they lived on Anderson Street. The Ruffins lived on Anderson Street, and I think that—oh, boy, what’s their names? [The Georgiades’] daughter. Saw her the other night. She bought the Ruffins’ house from them, and she’s married to a town physician. Dr. [Watt] Eagle was I think ear, nose, and throat was there. Then Dr. Reeves was sort of up the corner. I think he was x-ray, radiology. I was trying to think. Callaway I thought lived on campus, he and Kay. But I’m not really sure. But those on Anderson Street, they could give the best parties, Dr. [Julian] Ruffin had a guitar that he would always bring out, and sing. Of course all the vegetables that were served in the meal, he grew in this back garden of his. They had many roses. He was a true Southern gentleman. He liked to say that a relative of his fired the first shot from Fort Sumter, you know. But I don’t know. But he and Landon were just—. Well, it was a day gone by. It was. Because those of us that came later, we could not duplicate that. Nor did we want to. (laughs) Not that much trouble anyway.

Roseberry: (chuckles) So they would kind of give fine—

Tyor: Oh, they were absolutely perfect dinner parties. Sit-down dinner parties with at least twenty or more at the table. They were terrific. They really were.

Roseberry: So they would invite the younger doctors—

Tyor: Yes. Younger house staff. And we would be as nervous as could be. (laughs)

Roseberry: Did your—in that younger generation, did your children kind of grow up together or—?

Tyor: Well, they did somewhat.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: But they weren’t always best friends.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: But they were friends. Marti was in this playgroup with Maureen Whelan. Bob Whelan was, you know, at Duke. Well, it was like this oldest granddaughter of mine. She was on this Hawaiian island study. I think she was a junior at Duke. She got into Honolulu, and she saw this boy from Durham that she had not known really well, but she knew he went to Duke, and he knew she went to Duke. So she went up and started talking to him. And he said, “What can I do for you, Jessica?” Well, she looked at him and she said, “Have you got a shower anywhere?” (laughs) She said, “We would love to have a shower.” (laughter) So you know this is the Duke family. He said, “Sure.” He said, “Come on, bring your friends, get clean.” (laughs) So this is sort of the Duke way. It was still that way a little bit for Jessica, my granddaughter. But not—not as much as us.

Roseberry: Um, I had a question that I was going to ask, and I’ve forgotten it. Um—.

Tyor: Well, I know that one of the places that we went to was Red’s Red Apple on Gregson Street. And some of the people remember that. It was where you had beer and anything else. They would sing all the time. There was a restaurant up near the old Coca-Cola place. I think a funeral home is there now, but it was called Rinaldi’s, and it was a restaurant.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: And that was oh, that was the meeting place, too, when you could get there. But it was always either walk or ride the bus, because not many had cars. Although Robert Anderson, his grandmother I think let him have her car. It was this big old Buick, and we called him Harpo. We still do. I do. And in fact he has a band up in Alexandria now, and he still plays in it. (laughs) But anyway, he had the car. The car.

Roseberry: The car.

Tyor: And Mal Tyor and Carlos Hudson won their car playing poker with—I think this guy’s name was [Leonard] Palumbo. They always had poker players in these millhouses that were on Erwin Road that they tore down. This is where the interns and the student technicians and I’ve forgotten who else lived. And Palumbo had poker parties. So Mal Tyor and Carlos Hudson won the money for their car. That’s how they had their car.

Roseberry: Let me flip our tape. I’m sorry to interrupt you. (tape 1, side 1 ends; tape 1, side 2 begins)

Tyor: They old mill houses were still there when he was in medical school. After he paid I don’t know how many parking fines. Bill Tyor previously lived over in North Durham with some guys. One was Peter Bressler. And he [Bill Tyor] was always parking his car and getting fines. So when he found out that this millhouse was available, he and some of his classmates moved in immediately. And then they would walk. No more fines! (laughs) But this was where—in our day where the interns were. And some of the student dietitians. And this friend of mine from Roanoke actually lived with Mrs. Few. You know, the biggie of Duke? Mrs. Few had rooms to rent to young ladies. And my friend Charlotte qualified. And she was a student technician, and it was right on the Watts Street. Well, they now call themselves now Trinity Park.

Roseberry: Trinity Park.

Tyor: I think is what they say now. But that was where she was. And she could ride the bus to work. But then Dr. [Elijah] Menefee at Duke, they lived over near Anderson Street. They had a daughter, Jeaneie, who is now back in Durham. And she’s the age of my blonde daughter up there (refers to picture on the wall). And when they went to Arizona for his health, and we were on sabbatical, we went down to see them. But that’s that story, and I’m trying to think of what else there was with the Menefees. Probably not very much. He was a pretty straight guy. But Dr. Kempner’s the one that was the whizzer. And I found out that the lady doctor that used to ride with him. She was blonde. She was young. In the convertible, always a convertible. And he left all of his—we called it the compound over there in what we used to call the old Watts Hospital area—to I think Barbara Newborg or someone like that. Barbara Zoddy would know. And—. But anyway, he was quite a character. You’d be going with the special diet cart, and all of a sudden he’d appear and throw the cloth off that was over the food and look to see what you had there. And if you didn’t have what he thought was proper, he’d say you have to go back to the diet kitchen. Scare us to death! (laughs)

Roseberry: So he wanted to regulate the diets of not just the people on the rice diet but—

Tyor: No, no, no; these were his diets. They were special diets, and they did not come from the main kitchen. They came from what we called the diet kitchen. And it was a separate place, and this is where Josh Turnage used to come for his main meal. You know, he owned Turnage Barbeque? We would have to weigh out his food, because he was a very bad diabetic. And also in that area across from the diet kitchen was the cafeteria or the eating place for the African-Americans. They were not allowed up on the first-floor cafeteria where the others ate. They had to eat down there. And of course right in that same vicinity was the dishwashing area where I said the German prisoners of war were. And that’s where they worked.

Roseberry: During the—?

Tyor: Yes.

Roseberry: During the wartime.

Tyor: Yes. That’s where they worked. They were German prisoners of war, and they were working at Duke Hospital kitchen area.

Roseberry: So were you involved in preparing the food, or was it some of those African-American staff workers?

Tyor: (laughs once) It depended. If they were minus any workers, the student dietitians—we used to laugh and say that we were the emergency workers. In other words, on the wards, they brought the food up, and they would put it on the plates there in the little ward kitchen. They would bring it up in this rollout thing that had heated holes and everything in it. It was sort of I guess battery at that point. And if no one was in there to work, then the student dietitian was called, and you had to serve the meals. I mean, we were called anything that was short, you were called to work. I mean, you had your set rotations, but if something broke down somewhere else, then you were a warm body, and you better go. And you’d better go fast and behave. Because not only did Mrs. Martin want you there but people like Dr. McBryde, you know, anyone. You had to do it. They knew you. They knew you by name. (laughs)

Roseberry: So was it—I mean, you’d have other things that you were doing during the day, but you had to let those things go and—

Tyor: Right. You had to just stop and go wherever there was trouble. And we laughed. And the reason I call that picture [that she donated to archives, with a group of dieticians in a kick line] the one o’clock kick? That’s the only time we were all off together was one o’clock. The rest of the time we worked split hours, and that was normal split hours. But it could be more than that if we were needed.

Roseberry: What were the kinds of things that you—?

Tyor: Anything, anything. I mean, like on Howland Ward, which was the pediatric ward, Miss Sherwood had no compunction about getting you to be the clean up a little one or get the pots. She didn’t have enough student nurses. Or if there was one little child that needed to go in a wheelchair just to get out of the ward, she’d have no compunction about getting a student dietitian. If she saw you. And sometimes she didn’t have to see you. She would call you. And so it was just—it was a big family. That’s what it was.

Roseberry: So would she have done that maybe to a medical student? Or was it just—?

Tyor: Medical students had to do sort of like that. It was—in other words they were not in their exalted positions that they think they’re in now. (laughs) They were working, too. In other words, they never said no to anyone, and it would not be no, it would be, “No, sir,” or “No, ma’am.” And you did it. And we were immaculate in our dress. I mean, our shoes were polished. Our uniforms were spanking clean. And starched. And you did not appear out of your room unless—if you were on duty. But if you were off, then you were allowed some leeway. But you weren’t off that much. (laughter)

Roseberry: So there, what were those hours that—?

Tyor: Oh, my goodness, it could be anything from 5 a.m. in the morning and supposedly then you’d get off, say, something like 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon supposedly. But if something came up, then you didn’t.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: But there wasn’t that much complaining, because, I mean, that was just the way it was.

Roseberry: Uh-huh. So it sounds like even though it was a big family, there was probably also some hierarchy, too.

Tyor: Some! (laughter) There was a great deal of it. And you just, you had to—. And you never would speak to any of the physicians or head nurses or anyone like sometimes they do now. Never, and you wouldn’t look the way some of these people do that work. No way. But it was, it was great, and I just loved every minute.

Roseberry: So what—tell me a little bit about the mechanics of dietetics. I mean, you were—

Tyor: Well, you had of course the regular menus, and then you had the menus that they wanted less fat, you know, or fat-free. Or salt-free, or like Dr. Kempner’s rice diet, you just had fruits. And you had to measure the amount of rice, and then there were several kinds of rice that you had. And you had to be careful because, as I said, he checked all the time. He was there. And you never knew. (laughs) He was like Houdini, Houdini or whatever the magician was. He wasn’t there, (laughing) and then he was there! And he would look, and if you had too many canned fruits on the platter and all, he’d make you go back and get something else. Because this is all those patients would get is first rice, you know, and fruits. And then he would add chicken and maybe some fish in there. But all the time he was monitoring everything. Everything. But it worked. I’ve seen them come in that, I mean, they were just—you thought they were gone. And they weren’t. They came around. And of course you know Dr. Ruffin saw how it was working, and he decided that he’d do a little bit of that, too. And he had to stop, though, because Dr. Kempner just had a pure passing-out fit and said he was stealing his diet. And in some respects he might have, but he was just seeing the common sense, you know, of it. That it did matter that you didn’t have too much of this, that, and so forth. But I tell you, they were prima donnas. And as I said, Ed Orgain was the best-looking guy walking the hallways and—but he was under control. (laughs) So anyway it was a good time.

Roseberry: So was this before the rice house?

Tyor: Oh yes, oh yes. This was way before the rice house. In fact, he had just come over from I don’t know whether it was Austria or Hungary. His accent was to die for, and of course he was good-looking, and he always had one or two blonde physicians, female physicians that trotted along with him. And his entourage. And I don’t think in the beginning that he really was respected that much. But when they began to see the results of what he was doing or trying to do, then came the respect. And then of course came the money and the, I guess, notoriety, and then he began to have these famous people come; and a lot of publicity. So he really did have something going. But one of his things alone would not work. In other words, it was the whole, whole thing. And it was just great.

Roseberry: So was he the only one that was kind of regulating what you would fix or measure or put in?

Tyor: Well, he had his people working for him. And he would tell them but he also was very, very—well, he was watching you know to see that it was done. Well, he was sort of like Dr. Stead in later years. Dr. Stead they said roamed the halls. You know, you never knew when he was coming. Well, I think that Dr. Kempner was the same way. You never knew. And he did it for the patient. And I think that’s correct. And no patient should have had all canned fruit. And they didn’t. (laughs)

Roseberry: So were you able to beyond that—were you able to kind of come up with the diets or the menus of regular patients? Or were there doctors—?

Tyor: Oh, oh, yes; you had to do those.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: You had to plan menus, and they had to be planned so many—I’ve forgotten whether it was a month ahead that we had to plan. See you had to purchase all of this, and you had to have all of this planned out. Where you were going to get it from, how much you were going to need for this menu and so forth. It was a lot to do with cost. The thing that was so amusing about Duke North—I’m sure they’ve changed it, but they gave me a tour not long after it opened and showed me where their storage room was for things like cereals and flour and sugar, et cetera. Well, it was sort of up against a wall, and it had flooded, and they had lost something like $30,000 worth of stuff in one storm. That was their planning for Duke North. Then they had planned that instead of cooking the food in the kitchen at Duke North—they had a very small kitchen—that they would buy these prepared meals from food services. And they found out how much they cost. So they ended up having to have them be cooked in Duke South kitchen and taken over to Duke North. I don’t know what they’re doing now. But that was the funniest thing. You know, you can plan ahead, but sometimes it doesn’t work out. But no, we did have to do that. That was part of it. That was part of menu planning, purchasing, that sort of thing, and then you had to watch what your people were doing. In other words, you had to be able to train them. In other words, if they didn’t know how to cook biscuits, you had to show them.

Roseberry: These were the kitchen workers?

Tyor: And then you also had to teach student nurses. And I had a wow of an example. We had to have glass pots to show the nurses. Well, I had not conditioned mine, and as I held it up to show them what I had done, the whole bottom fell out! (laughs) That was one of those moments. (laughs)

Roseberry: Good teaching moment!

Tyor: Well, that was always the plan, but that was bad. But we also had that as part of our duty, to teach the students nutrition. And in other words, we were very busy people, and it somewhat kept us out of trouble. But it was a great place and is a great place.

Roseberry: Did you also have monthly meetings? I read, let’s see, maybe with the ADA [American Dietetic Association] about monthly district and state dietetic meetings, was that—?

Tyor: No, not at our level. We were not, we were not allowed that.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: I’m sure that Mrs. Martin went to those, but we were not in on any of that at that point.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: But anyway it was a very, I guess, they had put it all into one year. It as a pretty loaded year, but it was necessary. And manageable.

Roseberry: And was there classwork as well?

Tyor: Oh, yes; oh, yes. We had to go to some of the classes that the medical students went to. In other words, we had to learn terminology also. That was part of the deal that you couldn’t not know medical terminology.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: And you had to be able to understand when a physician spoke to you about something, you couldn’t just be “Ahhhh.” (laughter) So yes we had that.

Roseberry: Now, did a lot of the women who were in that program go on to work at Duke?

Tyor: Not many of them did. Not many. I can’t remember if any of them stayed on was trying to ask Ruby Wilson when that program phased out. I don’t even remember. But I rather think that when they begin to have male nutritionists come in, that that was sort of the end of the female internship. That instead they had male nutritionists. I can’t get a time on that. At one time, the student nurse program just practically was eliminated. And it was just really fantastic there for a while. But they thought that I guess that they could save money. I don’t know. But it’s back and running now! So, we’ll see.

Roseberry: Tell me a little bit more about Elsie Martin.

Tyor: Oh, well, I really don’t know her personal life, but she was the cutest little redheaded lady. And had a fiery temper. But all the doctors were crazy about her, because they could call her at any time for anything, and she’d see that it was done. And she had a secretary, and I cannot remember her secretary’s name. But she was really—. She ordered her about. She was a go-fer, but she was more than that. But she was a fantastic lady. She really was. She was a person who could manage anything, and she did. She mentioned all of that beautifully. That little bitty redheaded lady.

Roseberry: Did she have an office?

Tyor: Yes, uh-huh.

Roseberry: Where was that?

Tyor: That was down at the end of the hall from the main kitchen, down in the basement. It may have been sub-basement. I don’t know what levels they do that now, but it was down at the very bottom. And her office was right down at the end of the hallway. So all of this was very contained, like dermatology in those days was just one little section right near the alcove for the PDC. It was downstairs not on the first floor and that was where Cal [Dr. J. Lamar Callaway] was. And it was—everybody had their little spot, but it was just not big. And you knew where everything was. You could get there. Not like the other—. It wasn’t too long ago I was in the hospital, and this poor lady about my age was walking around looking. And she said, “Could you tell me how to get out of here?” (laughs) And so I had to say, “Ma’am, how do you want to get out? Where do you want to get out?” (Roseberry laughs) And hoped that I could tell her. Because one time I was trying to take people around, and thought I knew what I was doing. And I got to where I thought was a hallway, and it was a wall. They had changed it. (Roseberry laughs) So I did say, “Let’s stop and regroup.” (laughter) You know. So anyhow, that’s the story.

Roseberry: Well, let’s go back if we could to some of those later years. Was there an expectation, you know, being the wife of a chief of the division or—?

Tyor: Well, it’s amusing, because this friend of mine in California, her husband was at Stanford, and he was chief of GI division. And so she asked me if I had a budget for entertaining. And I looked at her, and I said, “Mary, where did you get that from?” I said, “We don’t have an entertainment budget at Duke. You just do it yourself.” And I said, “That’s what we’ve always done.” But we had another friend who went to a northeast school, and she had a budget for entertaining. And this is where the friend in California got it from. But no, we had no budget. What I did was, my children at first would have to help, you know. They’d clean up the place, and then they’d help me serve the things. And I would cook all the food, but what I did was I kept an account of what it cost and how long it took, et cetera. Well, something happened, and I couldn’t do all the cooking. And so I got a caterer to come in. And you will never believe that it was less than what I had spent. I thought, Oh, how you can be dumb so many years? (laughter) But we never had you know the elegant things that the Ruffins and the Eagles, you know, and all had. We had in the dining room just food out and then you could go in the back. This whole place, you know, is the flow. And drinks were out here on the sun porch. You could walk from here, all around, and it was just informal. But we never had the formal thing, and I after I had that wake-up call, I did not cook and do all that anymore. I did make the children help clean up, but I had the things brought in. And incidentally this house was built by a former professor of Mal’s, Dr. E. C. Hamblen [Edwin C. Hamblen], who was in endocrinology at Duke. And his wife Agnes was a big garden clubber as I was, am, and so forth. So when they decided they had to sell this house—they built it. They had it on the market, and when we came to see it and he realized that Mal was an old student and his wife saw this young gardener, they told the realtor. “Sell it to them.” So that’s how we got this house. That’s the Duke family. (laughs)

Roseberry: What kinds of people were you entertaining when you had those house parties?

Tyor: Well, you would entertain the people in your husband’s division, and lots of times you would invite the Steads. And you know, because he was the chief of all. And I know we had a tree out there that one time Bill Tyor climbed up in it, and Dr. Stead walked by, and he looked up and he said, “Who are you?” And Bill looked at him and said, “Bill.” (laughing) And that’s all he said! So it was a lot of fun. It really was. But I don’t know whether they still do this now or not. You know, entertain the people in the division, because obviously I’m out of the loop. But that’s what we would do.

Roseberry: So that was kind of the expectation, or it was the common thing?

Tyor: Well, it was expectations, and it was more so that families could know each other. And Harvey and Jean Estes had this place up at Gaston Lake, and they were going to have families come, and they told them to bring their families. Well, they didn’t say dogs. (laughing) And it was pouring down rain and everybody came, dogs and all. (laughing) And my friend Jean said it was the wildest time they’ve ever—. Because you know a cottage on a lake is not that big. And here are all these animals and these little kids and these people and—so they didn’t do that anymore! (laughter) So. And then my friend Dottie [Sieker], when she was a very young wife, she didn’t really cook that well. And so the Steads had to come to dinner, and Dottie’s oven died, and so she had to send over here to get the food cooked. (laughter) I mean, this thing happened. They really did. (laughter) And so they managed. But she said that she thought that they were going to be so drunk they wouldn’t know what they had to eat. Because you know you keep serving, and if things are not cooking, there you are. And so it was a little distance from her place here, but we managed. Those were the fun times. And then when Harvey and Jean would have things; Harvey at one time was I guess involved with the British a great deal. Jean would have these big brunches at her house. I don’t know why Mal and I were there one time, but these two British ladies were standing talking, and one said, “Are you going to have some of the pecan pie?” (pronounces it ’ pē-kin) And I was standing there, and I almost exploded, because my Dad used to have this saying with a lot of words. “Pe-‘can, pe-‘cahn, ‘pē-kin.” Well, I didn’t think real people said “‘pē-kin.” Well, when they said “‘pē-kin”, I thought, “Oh, no.” (laughter) This is what Jean would do. Cook all of this for these functions. I think Harvey may have been chief of Family Medicine then, probably. We all took our turns. But now I don’t know whether they do or don’t.

Roseberry: Was that fairly often that you would do these things?

Tyor: Well, no. Mal would do it at least every three months, about every three months. And then you’d have a Christmas party. And finally some of Mal’s people told him (laughs) they’d rather have the money (laughing) than the Christmas party. Because we’d go to places like Hartman’s, you know, the steak place that now is no more. And then there was another place out on 15-501, Country Squire, that they tore down for the 40 extension there. I’ve forgotten the name of that place. But anyway, you’d have a Christmas steak dinner. Thus, some of them told Mal that if it was all the same to him, (laughing) they would rather have the money. So no more Christmas steak dinners.

Roseberry: So all those parties that you threw, was that—your family was paying for that money?

Tyor: Oh, yes, we were. We were paying for that. And back when Mal was in several of these important national organizations. (tape 1 ends; tape 2 begins)

Roseberry: And so your husband was chair.

Tyor: Yes, he was the chairman. There was one guy from San Diego, Alan Hoffman, that thought he was a wine expert. And he would get the most expensive wine you’ve heard of. And of course dodo Malcolm would sit there and have to pay for all this; on our charge card. Because that’s the way these organizations worked. And if it was the VA, sometimes it would be three months before you’d be refunded. So about this time, I go up to Chapel Hill to this place called the Little Shoppe to get my usual one outfit per season. I hand them my card, and it bounces. And I look, and I said, “I can’t believe this.” And then I said, “Well, I think I can write you a check.” So when I got home, I asked Malcolm, “What happened to that charge card?” (laughing) And he said, “I haven’t been refunded yet.” I said, “It’s obvious that you haven’t.” And then talking about refunding, when we went on sabbatical, we were supposed to be paid by the NIH, okay? So we’d been out there three months, and we hadn’t gotten any money from the NIH. So here comes this Washington bigwig that Malcolm invites for dinner. We had tuna fish salad. And so Mal, bigmouth, says, “What are we having this for?” And I, in front of the bigwig, said, “Because we have no money.” I said, “These Washington people have not paid us.” Well, if Mal could have shot me then, he would have done it! (laughing) So the guy said, you know, from Wash—“Do you mean you haven’t gotten any?” And I said, “That’s exactly what I mean, sir.” And he said, “I’ll fix it.” Well, in two days’ time, we had the money. But I also caused trouble when Mal was president elect of the American Gastroenterology Association. We went to San Francisco. And the wives in those days had to pay their own airfare, their own hotel bill, their food, yes, everything. So I found out they were having this dinner for these people that I didn’t even know. They didn’t know. And they were paying. And they wanted me to come. I said, “You’ll pay my way?” “No,” they said. So I said, “I don’t go then.” I said, “If I pay my way, I’ll call my daughter, and we’ll go out to dinner in the city.” I said, “Too bad.” And so Mal looked at me and said, “But you have to go. You’re the president elect’s wife.” I said, “I already spent enough money on this organization, and I’m not going to do it.” So they had a special board meeting, and they changed the bylaws so that the wives were paid. But all the other wives had just taken it, and they’d said fine and so forth. And all of a sudden, I realized it just wasn’t fair. And I told them. I said, “You know, I have to have new clothes. Not many but some for this.” I said, “I have to pay my own plane fare.” I said, “Half of the hotel bill I have to pay.” I said, “All the meals that I eat out here, I have to pay for.” I said, “I’m not playing this anymore.” (laughter) I said, “I’ll go somewhere else.” So they changed it, and some of the wives, they were so sweet. They said thank you. They were coming up in the hierarchy. And I said, “You’re very welcome.” Then another time at a meeting, some of these wives would play one-upmanship, you know, about, I went to so-and-so school. I did this and that. And a little lady sitting by me whispered when they started, she said, “I haven’t been to college.” So I knew that they were going to kill her. So when they got to me, they got to me first, I said, “Well, I was a Rockette,” I said. “And I had the best time.” I said, “Let me tell you some stories.” (Well, Marti was about five then. She was there. We had to take her.) It stopped right then with me. The one-upmanship stopped. And I knew it would. And so we got to the room, and Marti said, “Mother, you lied.” And I said, “Sure. And I’ll tell you why.” I said, “I just don’t think that was very nice.” (laughter) Anyhow. That sort of my problem I’ve had all my life that I guess—what is it? “Fools rush in where angels fear to trod.” (laughs) But I didn’t do that with the hierarchy in the medical school when I was young. No way would I ever have done that.

Roseberry: Was there any one-upmanship in that atmosphere?

Tyor: Oh, there was a great deal. There always is. You know, very, very competitive. People jealous if one has more notoriety than the other. That sort of thing. It’s always been that way and always will be, I suspect.

Roseberry: Was that true among the women as well?

Tyor: Uh-huh, uh-huh. In fact, there was one guy that trained under Mal. His wife just couldn’t hack it. She didn’t like the other wives. She thought that—. And they may have been a little, sort of nasty to her (you’ve got to have a tough skin). And she just wouldn’t have anything to do with any of them. And it really affected her husband’s career. Because after you get up a certain height, you have to have a wife to help you. And she just was antagonistic and just really didn’t want to try. You have to get along with people whether you like it or not sometimes. She just didn’t like it, and he just didn’t go that far. It was just very evident. You could see it.

Roseberry: When you said you have to have a wife to help you, what does—?

Tyor: Well, for instance, when Mal would have his Duke party when he was president of the AGA, he might not be on hand to show up when it started. (laughs) He might not even know what they were going to serve. So it was up to me to see that they were having everything correct. That I was there to greet people when they came in, because there were people who would be from schools all over the country. Sometimes there were foreigners. And he just, he wasn’t there. And it didn’t bother me, because that was just part of the job.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: I enjoyed it. (laughter) As you can tell. And then of course when he traveled in Europe as president of the AGA, I had a ball. And he I think at times was a little nervous because he nor I spoke another language other than bad English. And he was afraid we couldn’t get along. And I told him, “Don’t worry, I’ll take care of it.” And I did. And it was just terrific. So I enjoyed it all. (laughs)

Roseberry: Good.

Tyor: But they do, all men at a certain stage, if they really get up in the hierarchy, they need a wife to help them. They do. And I can’t explain all the ways that you could help, but you have to. You have to remember people for them. You know, there will be someone you know will come up, and the husband will say, (gasps) “Who’s that?” Well, you better know who that was. And just little mini-things that are important in the long run. And that was part, I think, of training with Evelyn Stead. She made you remember people’s names, said it made them feel important. That is something that will make another person feel important. That was the training that we had there. So all of this you know put together made a not bad person I think. (laughs)

Roseberry: Did you also know Ethel Wyngaarden?

Tyor: One of my best friends. What used to happen there in the old days, the Wyngaardens would take that blonde (refers to picture on the wall) with them up to Bar Harbor. And they would line them up in front of the Rockefellers or whoever was there. And they’d say, “Which one is not the Wyngaarden?” Well, they never guessed that she wasn’t the Wyngaarden. Never. But Jackie [Tyor] was just another Wyngaarden. Really. And I know that Patty [Wyngaarden], the oldest one whose picture now is in the Fitzpatrick, you know, whatever. One time Patty called over and she said, “Miss Tyor, I can’t find a coat in the closet anywhere except Gina’s [Tyor]. Can I wear it?” They swapped clothes all along. And I said, “Patty, didn’t anyone tell you what they were doing?” “No,” she said. I said, “Take it, and wear it and be happy.” (laughs) So you know that was the Wyngaardens. But Ethel was the most wonderful person—is to this day—one of the best friends I’ve ever had. She and I carpooled, you know, all this. And she never would let you down. Some of the ladies would call at the last minute, they couldn’t take their turn or whatever. And I’m not saying any names, because they’re still breathing. But Ethel is just a love. Ethel gave the best parties that you’d ever want to go to. Just fantastic. Good friend. See, that’s the wives. (laughter)

Roseberry: Good. So would you all kind of socialize together beyond—?

Tyor: Um-hm, um-hm, um-hm, um-hm.

Roseberry: —meeting with your husbands work.

Tyor: Definitely, yes, definitely. And in fact we did socialize. In fact, Bill Deiss in Galveston, Texas, we visited him quite often. And he is in that group of the VA young men there. See, I have kept up with Bill, and he calls every now and then to see how I am. So really and truly, it’s a family. And I don’t know that it’s died out or not. But it has been with us.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: And like when that one (refers to a photograph) got married in Duke Gardens the first time, I had to have Duke Memorial Church as a backup. And Mary [Duke Biddle Trent] Semans was putting flowers in for her mother. So I couldn’t change the flowers, so I called Mary and told her that we might have to come there if it rained. And she said, “Well, what’s Jackie wearing?” (laughs) And I told her, and she said, “Well, I’ll have white floppy flowers to match her dress.” (laughs) You know, things like that, Jessica, that I don’t think happened always.

Roseberry: So was Mary Semans involved in some of those social groups as well or involved—?

Tyor: Well, not as much, because she was involved more with civic things. She’s the only one that stayed in Durham and really made her mark here. But now her husband, first husband, [Josiah Trent] of course, died, but her second husband, Jim [Semans] used to walk, when he was well, around by here. And if Mal was out working in the yard, he’d always stop, and they’d talk. And talk, and talk, and talk. (Roseberry chuckles) But this last week, I hugged Mary and told her that I was hugging the most beautiful lady in Forest Hills. You know, it’s just that we’ve known each other forever. That’s the way it is. And of course Bill Fulkerson I call the Big Cheese. (laughter) And when I told that to my little primary physician, he said, “You call him what?!” (laughter) I said, “I call him the Big Cheese!” And I said, “He knows that.” There is of course when Sandy [R. Sanders] Williams was dating Jennifer, his wife; Jennifer was here in this house with our two older daughters when we had the sabbatical in Arizona. And Sandy was dating Jennifer from this house. Sandy’s part of my family. Because Jennifer is the daughter of one of Mal’s old classmates, class of ’46. See? It just goes—it’s so twined around and mixed up—

Roseberry: It is.

Tyor: —that you just don’t know where it ends.

Roseberry: (laughs) Well, tell me more about that class of ’46. You were talking about the Purple Jesus when— (laughs)

Tyor: Well, they had this cabin, and I asked Charlotte Sieber where it was. She thought it was down Erwin Road you know before it was developed.

Roseberry: Uh-huh.

Tyor: Because it was woodsy. I thought it was back where the Duke Faculty Club you know is now. But they had this cabin that they’d go to and have parties, and they’d mix up this stuff called Purple Jesus. And it was alcohol from the lab, and it was grape juice, and it’s a wonder it didn’t kill us all.

Roseberry: (chuckles) Who was doing this mixing?

Tyor: All the guys.

Roseberry: All the guys.

Tyor: Oh, well, not all of them. Some of them were really good kids, but most of them were rascals. And those were the parties that we’d have. In this day and age there was no sex particularly; there was kissing but nothing else. And no drugs. We didn’t even hear of drugs in those days. But it was just mostly singing and getting together with time off, which they didn’t have and we didn’t have very much of. And you couldn’t, there was no place in Durham to really go because one, I think there was one or two movie houses downtown, but we didn’t have that much money, and we didn’t have transportation. And so consequently, we were all together. But of course the funniest story that I told you was about Mal and Barnes Woodhall when Mal was a freshman rushing across the campus to get to the amphitheater, and he sees this young guy, and he said, “Do you know the way to the amphitheater?” And this young guy said, “Yes.” And he said, “Why?” And Mal said, “Well, I’ve got to go hear somebody—” I think he said some jerk or something “—speak.” So when they get to the amphitheater, Barnes Woodall sticks his hand out and said, “I’m Barnes Woodall, the jerk you’ve come to hear.” And that was how Mal met Barnes. And of course we’ve kept up with Betsy his daughter. You know she was the beauty queen at Durham High. And she married Charley Rackley who was I think house staff here at Duke, and they’re at—Charley I think is still practicing at George Washington, and we’ve kept up. (laughs) You know. See, this just the way it goes, Jessica! I was trying to think if I thought of any other funny stories. Well, there are just a lot of them really. Whole bunch. (Roseberry chuckles) And as I said, everyone knew everyone else. And liked everyone else. Or they may have had some misgivings about some of the traits that some people had, but as a whole, they looked on them as Duke people. Colleagues and all. And yet it was very strong. This is what the old ones started, Duke. Now, there was some real not very good feeling that still may go on somewhat between the undergraduate school and the medical school. As the medical school got bigger and more well known, the undergraduate people felt that they were being ignored and probably not taken care of as well. And they may have been right. But as a whole, Duke people were Duke people. And that was it. (laughs)

Roseberry: Do you think there was a town-gown—?

Tyor: Oh, definitely, definitely. There for a while. It’s not so much now, but there was. Although I have friends that won’t go to Duke Hospital if they’re sick. They go to Durham Regional. They will not go to Duke Hospital. So there’s still with the older ones that feel—. But now it’s not the same. And we even had a lot out in what they call the new Duke lots before we bought this house. And the three children we had then just said, Oh, don’t move out there. We don’t want to be queer Duke people. (laughs) And this was what Duke people were known to the town at that point I think.

Roseberry: So it was kind of a clique?

Tyor: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um-hm. And I guess rightly so, because we were. But it was a good clique. (laughs)

Roseberry: Fun clique.

Tyor: So is there anything else?

Roseberry: Well, is there anything that I have forgotten to ask you or not ask you about?

Tyor: Well, I don’t think so. Except that Duke has just grown since I have been here to—if I had been Rip Van Winkle and waked up and gone, I wouldn’t have known where I was. And just to give an example, Duke Gardens was just the fishpond you know and the pagoda with the wisteria and that was it. Nothing else was developed. Absolutely nothing else. But I’ve lived to see that done, and of course now the old hospital entrance and Baker House have been sort of enclosed into that lawn area now. And when some of the oldies come back, they say, “Where is it? Where’d it go?” So I have to take them around and show them you know (laughter) where it went. So, it’s all—it’s really changed. It’s grown.

Roseberry: Has it, did that start under Anlyan do you think? Is that when some of those big changes started or—?

Tyor: I think it probably started with Bill Anlyan. It was the time for this to happen. You either did that or you went under, and of course Bill is just the most marvelous politician that you’d ever want to see. And he just knows how to get along with people, work the crowd. It’s just in his very fingertips, and he did a fantastic job. He really did. But he was the one that really I guess was here when it exploded. Began to explode. And I think probably so, it’s due to Bill. But now his son (laughs) was in the campus, West Campus, with that blonde over there (refers to photo) when they were having the riots. And we had told that blonde not to go on West Campus. So all of a sudden we get this call from Duke Emergency. It’s Jackie crying, and she says, “Billy was knocked out of the tree.” (laughs) And we said, “What were you doing first on West Campus?” “Weeell, you know—boo-hoo-hoo.” They were in Emergency. He hadn’t been hurt badly. But they all were scared, and they’d gotten him there. Now, see that’s the Duke family. (laughs)

Roseberry: So they were going to watch?

Tyor: They were watching, they were watching what was going on. And I told Jackie, I said, “Why didn’t you wait and let somebody tell you about it? We told you not to go there.” (makes sounds like crying) (laughter)

Roseberry: I did think of one more question that, about your living quarters. What those were like or what those looked like when you were in dietetics.

Tyor: Well, there were two girls to a room.

Roseberry: Okay.

Tyor: And we had a bathroom in between each room. And then down the hall from there, there was a room that—well, we used to call it the utility room sort of that had ironing boards, you know, and things like that that we could use. We weren’t paid a penny but we did get our meals free. In fact, this is the way Mal was with his internship at Wisconsin. He wasn’t paid a penny, but he did get his meals. And so when we got married and I came up, I did have to work as a dietitian. I take it back. At St. Mary’s Catholic Hospital in Madison, Wisconsin. And that was our only cash money. And of course he ate at his hospital, and I ate at mine. And we lived in this house that we didn’t even have a kitchen. We just had a room. And we had of course ride the bus. And he and I used to dream nights that we had a kitchen with a refrigerator and a cold drumstick in there, chicken drumstick. (laughter) But you know that was just the way. And when we first got married, on our honeymoon, he took out one of his clean shirts on our honeymoon. And the board from the shirt said Wisconsin State Prison. And I looked at that and I said, “Mal, you’re not going to put that in the trash?” And he said, “Well, where am I going to put it?” (laughs) The prison did the laundry for the hospital. (laughter) Oh, speaking about honeymoon. The friends, some of them, had told us a good place to go on the honeymoon. Miami. So we drive from Georgia, we’re tired and everything. We get to this hotel. Mal goes in. He comes back out, and his face is as white as this. I said, “What’s wrong?” He said, “We’re not staying there.” I said, “What is it?” He said, “It’s a red-light place.” (laughs) As a joke, that’s where they had sent the boo-boos for our honeymoon.

Roseberry: For your honeymoon?

Tyor: So. That was friends. (laughs) We had to get another one. But no, it was not easy living, and as all of us say now, we really didn’t have that much money. And of course when Mal went from the VA over to Duke, Harvey Estes and Herb Seeker and I’ve forgotten who else were already there. And Mal had been making more at the VA than they were making at Duke. You know what Dr. Stead did? He cut Mal’s salary. (laughing) He said, “Tyor, you can’t make that.” (laughter)

Roseberry: So he kind of stepped down to—

Tyor: He cut it so that Mal was on the same level as the others. And we really didn’t have that much money. (laughs) So I guess that’s about. I’ve got a lot of Stead stories, but I loved him so much. I really did. Smartest human being that I think I’ve ever known.

Roseberry: Really?

Tyor: Um-hm. He wasn’t just intelligent with medicine. It was just everything.

Roseberry: Hmmm.

Tyor: Just everything. And of course I tease Harvey Estes and tell him that he is almost a clone of Dr. Stead’s, because Harvey has that, too. It’s not just medicine, it’s many things. Because so many of them have tunnel vision, medicine, and that’s all they can do. But Harvey is just interested in so many things as Dr. Stead was. So it’s a good group.

Roseberry: How did Dr. Wyngaarden run things?

Tyor: He was very good except that Ethel was his plus really in getting along with people and that sort of thing. And I think he’s not ever been the same since the divorce, because she just—I don’t know, she was sort of steadying the ship. He’s intelligent, he’s very good and so forth. He’s gone a long way but hasn’t been the same. But of course I’m biased, I’m prejudiced, everything else. Because Ethel’s my friend. (chuckles) But she more than did her share with that marriage. And was extremely helpful, and I don’t know of many—I don’t know of anyone that didn’t really like her. And of course Joe Greenfield. (laughs once) He is a rascal. He will not go to social things. And they are members of my church, and he did go one time. And I looked all around the walls of the church. I said, “Watch out! They’re going to fall!” But he just, he does not go to social things. But he’s been a good man, and Bill Tyor worked one or two summers with Joe in his dog lab. You know, doing work there. And of course Jackie worked with Bill Wilson in Psychiatry doing EEGs on children, babies. And Jeanna worked with Leon Lack in his lab. He’s a PhD. So you see, Duke, Duke connections is probably, what would they call it? Favoritism or something like that. But they all had places that they did work with them. And we made our children work and get their extra money. We didn’t have extra. (laughs) So that’s that story.

Roseberry: Let me, I think we’re running out of tape on this side. (pause in recording) —much for telling your stories, and I’ve really enjoyed speaking with you this afternoon. I appreciate it very much.

(end of interview)